Biopellets!

[ShinyRobot]

My apologies if someone has asked this before in the chemistry forum, I have read many things about biopellets, some of which just don't make sense or just seem like vague assumptions. I'm looking for information about the chemistry reactions that take place - specifically what is stripped out and what the byproduct is (in layman's terms as much as possible) from running a biopellet reactor in the first stage of a sump, next to the skimmer.

The way I currently understand it, the pellets strip out the nitrates (not phosphates or anything else, just nitrates) and the byproduct is a bacteria of some kind that if not skimmed out fast enough will feed diatoms and cyano - is that correct? Are any trace elements also removed by running biopellets? Are trace elements skimmed out as a direct result of biopellets, or could there be an increase? (I'm using CoralVue BioSphere pellets, I'm not sure if that matters).

I am also running a chaeto refugium that comes after my skimmer. Would chaeto absorb any of the excess byproduct from the biopellets? If not, is there a type of algae that might absorb biopellet byproduct? So far the chaeto appears to be growing nicely, but I have only been running biopellets for a few months. Should I expect the nutrients to be stripped out much more as time goes on, thus starving my chaeto?

 

[Ashish Patel]

Thats a whole lot of questions - Calling all scientist ;Smuggrin

There are some really good videos on Youtube regarding bio pellets. I believe Melev has a good one. I am sure the crap that comes out of the reactor will feed algae and remove other trace elements. NP bio pellets is for Nitrates only and AIO is for PO and NI. I was going to use bio pellet reactor but envisioned a crash at a later date so decided to manage nutrients with good flow, skimmer, chaeto, miracle mud, carbon, and marinepure.. all which are now stripping my NO to undetectable levels and now I find myself about to add potassium nitrates to increase it. Hope someone helps but this is my take!

 

[ShinyRobot]

Thats a whole lot of questions - Calling all scientist ;Smuggrin

There are some really good videos on Youtube regarding bio pellets. I believe Melev has a good one. I am sure the crap that comes out of the reactor will feed algae and remove other trace elements. NP bio pellets is for Nitrates only and AIO is for PO and NI. I was going to use bio pellet reactor but envisioned a crash at a later date so decided to manage nutrients with good flow, skimmer, chaeto, miracle mud, carbon, and marinepure.. all which are now stripping my NO to undetectable levels and now I find myself about to add potassium nitrates to increase it. Hope someone helps but this is my take!

Thanks, yes I went with CoralVue BioSphere pellets after watching one of Melev's videos. I'm not familiar with the acronyms AIO and NP, are those brands of biopellets?

 

[Ashish Patel]

Thanks, yes I went with CoralVue BioSphere pellets after watching one of Melev's videos. I'm not familiar with the acronyms AIO and NP, are those brands of biopellets?

AIO pellets = Removes both PO and NO
NP pellets - Remove Nitrates only!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

All organic carbon dosing methods must remove some phosphate for the organisms to grow and build tissues that have P in them, but bacteria that use nitrate as a source of oxygen (instead of O2; called denitrification)) necessarily use more nitrate than the N in their tissues would account for, so the method is strongly biased toward nitrate reduction.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

AIO pellets = Removes both PO and NO
NP pellets - Remove Nitrates only!

I have no idea what those acronyms mean, but none can be nitrate "only".

 

[ShinyRobot]

Good to know, thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley . I looked up the pellets I guess they are brands - the NP pellets I'm sure heavily skews towards removing nitrates. My CoralVue pellets are the "both" kind.

Ok - so I was incorrect thinking that they only strip nitrates. Is there anything else that they remove? What is the byproduct, and would the byproduct contribute to cyano and diatoms? Is it phosphates at that point or something else entirely?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Good to know, thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley . I looked up the pellets I guess they are brands - the NP pellets I'm sure heavily skews towards removing nitrates. My CoralVue pellets are the "both" kind.

Ok - so I was incorrect thinking that they only strip nitrates. Is there anything else that they remove? What is the byproduct, and would the byproduct contribute to cyano and diatoms? Is it phosphates at that point or something else entirely?

They remove almost every trace element that is incorporated into bacteria (iron, zinc, vanadium, manganese, etc.) , same as growing macroalgae does, but perhaps less iron. You may not notice this demand, however, relative to what all the photosynthetic organisms in the tank are also taking up.

 

[ShinyRobot]

They remove almost every trace element that is incorporated into bacteria (iron, zinc, vanadium, manganese, etc.) , same as growing macroalgae does, but perhaps less iron. You may not notice this demand, however, relative to what all the photosynthetic organisms in the tank are also taking up.

Thank you that is very informative. Do you think it is possible to grow both chaeto and have biopellets together at the same time? I was thinking about copapods and other natural "goodness" that might come from the natural breakdown with chaeto, but was initially attracted to the (reported) stability that biopellets offer. I'm curious what running more or less biopellets actually does, I haven't fully grasped how biopellets work, exactly. I'm full of questions so my apologies if they come all at once

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not sure there's any "goodness" to growing macroalgae relative to organic carbon dosing. The bacteria are good food for filter feeders. That's the main reason I did it.

Yes, you can organic carbon dose of any type and grow macroalgae (I did using vinegar and caulerpa racemosa), but if you drive the organic too hard you'll kill the chaeto by taking up too much nitrate/ammonia. So it may take less pellets than normal to use both.

 

[ShinyRobot]

I'm not sure there's any "goodness" to growing macroalgae relative to organic carbon dosing. The bacteria are good food for filter feeders. That's the main reason I did it.

Yes, you can organic carbon dose of any type and grow macroalgae (I did using vinegar and caulerpa racemosa), but if you drive the organic too hard you'll kill the chaeto by taking up too much nitrate/ammonia. So it may take less pellets than normal to use both.

This is awesome, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions.

Yes I've got a goby that likes his sandbed with copapods and already had chaeto growing before I put in the biopellets.

What happens to the biopellet byproduct if the skimmer doesn't completely get it all? Is it possible that there is anything beneficial to SPS, LPS corals or even an anemone or fish as it's broken down naturally in the water column?

 

[Larry L]

What happens to the biopellet byproduct if the skimmer doesn't completely get it all?

I think you might be missing something fundamental here: biopellets don't strip anything out, by themselves. They are just food for bacteria, and provide a source of carbon for them, same as dosing vodka or dosing vinegar. As the bacteria grow and multiply, they consume nitrate and phosphate (and other stuff). The byproduct from the biopellet reactor is the bacteria themselves, so if they're not skimmed out they'll take up residence elsewhere in your tank, be eaten by filter feeders, etc.

 

[ShinyRobot]

I think you might be missing something fundamental here: biopellets don't strip anything out, by themselves. They are just food for bacteria, and provide a source of carbon for them, same as dosing vodka or dosing vinegar. As the bacteria grow and multiply, they consume nitrate and phosphate (and other stuff). The byproduct from the biopellet reactor is the bacteria themselves, so if they're not skimmed out they'll take up residence elsewhere in your tank, be eaten by filter feeders, etc.

Oh! Ok that makes much more sense now! I had no clue how vodka or vinegar were similar, just that people do either/or. So, is it the same beneficial bacteria that lives in the bubble sponges and live rock? Does it deplete ever, or should I continue dosing Microbacter7 each week?

 

[Old Glory]

This is an older video but pretty good

 

[Old Glory]

Another video

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is awesome, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions.

Yes I've got a goby that likes his sandbed with copapods and already had chaeto growing before I put in the biopellets.

What happens to the biopellet byproduct if the skimmer doesn't completely get it all? Is it possible that there is anything beneficial to SPS, LPS corals or even an anemone or fish as it's broken down naturally in the water column?

They get eaten by other organisms (including corals), some settle out and grow elsewhere, some may die and decay.

 

[JamesP]

Oh! Ok that makes much more sense now! I had no clue how vodka or vinegar were similar, just that people do either/or. So, is it the same beneficial bacteria that lives in the bubble sponges and live rock? Does it deplete ever, or should I continue dosing Microbacter7 each week?

I dose a vodka vinegar mix and mb7 myself. I found the mb7 is useful in preventing cyano outbreaks from carbon dosing as is mixing the two liquid carbon sources vs using one or the other. I would keep up the mb7 even if you go with pellets, but I would suggest liquid carbon sources over pellets as it is easier to manipulate the bacteria colonies by just adjusting your dose and using a dosing pump such as the brs 1.1 mL doser.

 

[ShinyRobot]

I dose a vodka vinegar mix and mb7 myself. I found the mb7 is useful in preventing cyano outbreaks from carbon dosing as is mixing the two liquid carbon sources vs using one or the other. I would keep up the mb7 even if you go with pellets, but I would suggest liquid carbon sources over pellets as it is easier to manipulate the bacteria colonies by just adjusting your dose and using a dosing pump such as the brs 1.1 mL doser.

I'm curious what the ramp-up time is for vodka/vinegar vs adding more biopellets. In your experience have you found you need to modify your dosing schedule?