Black Ich?

[puffy127]

Not sure if this is black ich or normal markings. He's already gone through prazi/metro and copper treatment according to @Humblefish protocol: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-current-qt-process.483371/page-6#post-5525062

(I'm pretty sure the white dots are lympho as they are only on the fins and they have been there since I received the fish).

Click on the images to see full-size:

 

[Big G]

Could be black ich. It can multiply rather quickly but Prazi, dosed twice 5-7 days apart usually takes care of black ich. There have be cases that are prazi resistant black ich. The next step would be a bath in a formalin product. Kinda hard to find, but this one by Hikari has 22% formaldehyde.

 

[Nick blinkin]

Following, hope the fish gets better. And never knew there was black ich.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Did you try a freshwater dip? Did that have any effect on them?

Does look like black ich to me. Maybe a freshwater dip would knock them back enough to allow the prazi to get them. If you did General Cure last time, maybe try PraziPro.

 

[puffy127]

The fish came in like this and after 20 days it has stayed the same and has not gotten worse. I have Fritz Quick Cure (37% formaldehyde) on the way. If it is black ich, I'm not sure I want to try Prazi pro and then find out I have a prazi-resistant strain (which may be the case since GC didn't work) and then have to dose formalin. I would rather just go straight to formalin.

@Humblefish what are your thoughts?

Also have you found any difference in effectiveness between formalin dips with transfer to sterile tanks vs a long-term formalin bath in QT? If I do a long-term bath, I read one of your posts that says do it like prazi, 2 doses at 1 ml/10g, 5-7 days apart. Do I do a water change in between? Would that effectively kill any black ich in the QT or would I need to sterilize the QT before the next batch of fish?

 

[Big G]

There is some evidence that long term exposure to formalin can damage fish's liver and shorten the life span. For that reason, I'd consider going the formalin bath which is also what Noga recommends for Black Ich treatment as well. Dose directions on your container.

From @Humblefish 's treatment advisory:
How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.

 

[puffy127]

I'm still not confident this is black ich so I decided to hold off on the formalin and tried Prazi Pro. Did 2 doses 8 days apart and still no major change to the black spots. If this were Prazi-resistant black ich, shouldn't it be getting worse instead of staying the same? The fish came this way and after a month in QT, the black spots have pretty much stayed the same the whole time. If we all are confident it is black ich, I will do the formalin dips, but if not, I'm eager to get this guy into the DT. @Humblefish @HotRocks @4FordFamily what do you all think?

 

[4FordFamily]

I’m not convinced for sure it’s black ich but I truly don’t have any idea what it would be if not, other than perhaps hypermelanization, which is mostly harmless.

Do the spots move at all?

 

[puffy127]

No, the spots do not move.

I did have another semilarvatus last year who had black spots, but they were concentrated to one area by the tail:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/black-mark-on-semilarvatus-tail-area.380407/

If it were black ich, would I see the black spots drop off after one 45 min formalin dip?

 

[puffy127]

Are there any other symptoms for black ich? How contagious is black ich?

I have 2 other fish that had been with him in a copper treatment QT and now in the observation QT (total time together is a month) and do not display any black spots.

And I have one fish undergoing copper treatment in the same QT that those 3 fish came out of and it is not displaying any black spots.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Looking at the second set of photos I’m not convinced it black ich either. Black ich has more consistency in the shape/size... this looks more like a discoloration. I’m not sure what else it could be either.

Actually, now that I think about it I had a tang with similar markings. He also had a bacterial lesion on his head, and ended up passing away in QT. I’ll try to dig-up the thread.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Found a picture but it’s not very clear like yours. Eventually these markings cleared up but he developed a stubborn bacterial infection...

This fish did have loads of flukes, @Humblefish thought maybe the marks were infected bite-wounds from the parasites.

 

[Humblefish]

I don't think that is black ich, but I would FW dip him to be sure.

 

[puffy127]

So if I don't see anything in the container after a FW dip and the black spots are still there on his body, would we be confident it was not Prazi-resistant black ich?

 

[Humblefish]

So if I don't see anything in the container after a FW dip and the black spots are still there on his body, would we be confident it was not Prazi-resistant black ich?

Yes

 

[puffy127]

Yes

Great, thank you and everyone for all the help!

 

[puffy127]

Ok, did the FW dip and nothing in bucket and black spots did not change.

Thanks again to everyone for all the help. I think we can get a little hypochondriacal with our fish at times