Blue out. Phosphates?

[Auquanut]

I've been having an issue with GHA for about 6 months now. Not sure why it decided to rear it's ugly head after 3 1/2 years, but it did. My parameters had been pretty rock solid for at least a year and a half.

My 125 is pretty heavily stocked with fish and coral. Everything from softies to SPS. They all seem to grow like crazy. Anyway, I've always had pretty high nutrients and an aggressive nutrient import/export method. Parameters were:
NO3 - 12 to 16
PO4 - .08 to .10
Cal - 420 to 440
Alk - 8.5 to 9.0
Mag - around 1400ish

I had been manually removing the GHA, reduced my feeding (particularly the pellets) and replaced my inefficient skimmer with one that pulls skimmate like a fiend. My nitrates immediately started to decline, but the phosphate really didn't drop noticeably. This is over a period of a few months. At one point, I thought I was gaining ground. Not so. The GHA just got more aggressive. Over the past few weeks, life/health issues kept me from removing the GHA and it really blew up. My nitrates (which had gotten down to about 8ish) tanked to less than 4. Maybe 2. My phosphates are still about at or near .08.

I've been considering a "blue out" for some time. Today I went Rambo on the GHA, removed 75% of the macro from the fuge (which stays pretty packed and produces like crazy), cut out my multi spectrum lights completely and reduced my blues a little bit. The theory is that maybe I can stabilize my nitrates and diminish the growth of the GHA while outcompeting it with the fuge. The plan is to run like this for a couple of weeks. Hoping the corals will cope temporarily with the change. During this time, I'll monitor Alk consumption, polyp extension and NO3. I also plan to manually remove any GHA I can get to daily. If I see any significant affect on the corals, I'll drop everything and go back to business as usual.

But what about the PO4? I'm not a big advocate of chemical intervention, but I'm afraid the phosphates could be the wrench in the machine. I could tumble some GFO, but worried I'd be doing too much at once. Also don't want to use it as a long term solution unless I have to.

So what do you think? Am I insane? Is this even plausible? Should I even worry about the PO4 at this point? Any knowledgeable advice would be greatly appreciated.

P.S. If anyone can offer an opinion as to why the GHA started taking over my established tank when it seemed to be on cruise control, I'd appreciate it.

 

[TexanCanuck]

I'm going to duck the question on why this started after 3.5 years ... I'm not that smart.

However, with respect to combatting GHA I would offer two suggestions:

1) do you have a herbivore in your tank that will eat it?
2) have you tried supplementing with Vibrant?

Vibrant takes a while to work, but it completely eliminated my GHA over about a month.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I generally recommend:
As you have, pull as much as you can by hand
Reduce white light intensity
Add chemipure blue or elite
And add CUC.

To elaborate, Green Hair Algae or "GHA" is really a broad term that covers hundreds of species of green simple filamentous algae. These species tend to be simple, fine in texture, and have few distinguishable features. GHA is not coarse or wiry, it should break apart easily when pulled, and should lose form quickly when removed from water. If you can make out a root structure, or a stiff branching structure it is probably not GHA. An excess of available nutrients, particular the majors like phosphates and nitrates. Keep an eye on possible iron and potassium sources which may also help fuel hair algae. Hair algae spores and fragments are so abundant that keeping it out of the tank via quarantine is unlikely to be successful. Your best bet to preventing this algae from taking hold is to maintain a weekly water change regimen, maintain your filtration and perform manual/natural algae removal as it forms. Proper magnesium and alkalinity levels are thought to discourage the growth of many species of GHA.

Some clean up crew that are very helpful are : Caribbean Blue Leg hermits, Cerith snails, Chitons, Turbo grazers, Sea Hares, Conchs, Emerald Crabs, Urchins and astrea snails.

 

[Auquanut]

I'm going to duck the question on why this started after 3.5 years ... I'm not that smart.

However, with respect to combatting GHA I would offer two suggestions:

1) do you have a herbivore in your tank that will eat it?
2) have you tried supplementing with Vibrant?

Vibrant takes a while to work, but it completely eliminated my GHA over about a month.

1. Yeah. I have a Hippo tang Yellow eye Kole and a yellow tang plus a one spot foxface. All of them are over three years old. The Hippo is absolutely no help.
2. I've considered it, but I'd rather not take the fuge off line. I will if it absolutely comes down to it. Kind of scared it will drive the nitrates through the roof.

 

[Auquanut]

I generally recommend:
As you have, pull as much as you can by hand
Reduce white light intensity
Add chemipure blue or elite
And add CUC.

To elaborate, Green Hair Algae or "GHA" is really a broad term that covers hundreds of species of green simple filamentous algae. These species tend to be simple, fine in texture, and have few distinguishable features. GHA is not coarse or wiry, it should break apart easily when pulled, and should lose form quickly when removed from water. If you can make out a root structure, or a stiff branching structure it is probably not GHA. An excess of available nutrients, particular the majors like phosphates and nitrates. Keep an eye on possible iron and potassium sources which may also help fuel hair algae. Hair algae spores and fragments are so abundant that keeping it out of the tank via quarantine is unlikely to be successful. Your best bet to preventing this algae from taking hold is to maintain a weekly water change regimen, maintain your filtration and perform manual/natural algae removal as it forms. Proper magnesium and alkalinity levels are thought to discourage the growth of many species of GHA.

Some clean up crew that are very helpful are : Caribbean Blue Leg hermits, Cerith snails, Chitons, Turbo grazers, Sea Hares, Conchs, Emerald Crabs, Urchins and astrea snails.

I've got a pincushion and tuxedo urchin. I also keep emerald crabs. Nothing seems to want to touch it. The kole tang pecks at it, but doesn't really do any damage. I've never noticed any fibrous texture, but some of it seems to attach very firmly to rock structures. It also seems to grow in clumps. Could it be bryopsis? I've researched it, but it just doesn't look like bryopsis.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've got a pincushion and tuxedo urchin. I also keep emerald crabs. Nothing seems to want to touch it. The kole tang pecks at it, but doesn't really do any damage. I've never noticed any fibrous texture, but some of it seems to attach very firmly to rock structures. It also seems to grow in clumps. Could it be bryopsis? I've researched it, but it just doesn't look like bryopsis.

Thats why I mentioned as I now suspect that and its a bit more difficult to remove. They are fast growing, and form a mat like root system on the rocks. Algae that grows from mats, instead of singular holdfasts, are harder to remove if they spread in your tank. This is due to the tedious work that is required to remove all of the algae from the surface it is growing on. Any piece that remains will likely continue growing.
Best removal is taking a dental pick or a small crochet needle and pull the actual roots and this may explain why nothing is eating it

 

[Auquanut]

Thats why I mentioned as I now suspect that and its a bit more difficult to remove. They are fast growing, and form a mat like root system on the rocks. Algae that grows from mats, instead of singular holdfasts, are harder to remove if they spread in your tank. This is due to the tedious work that is required to remove all of the algae from the surface it is growing on. Any piece that remains will likely continue growing.
Best removal is taking a dental pick or a small crochet needle and pull the actual roots and this may explain why nothing is eating it

Okay. I was kind of afraid of that. Guess I was in denial. Can't imagine why it's happening now. I literally haven't added anything in over a year (coral or fish). The problem is that there is no way of manually removing all of it. I'll attach pics tomorrow, but this tank is pretty well crammed with coral. I have over 100 pounds of live rock. I guess chemical treatment is my only option? I really didn't want to go down that road.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Okay. I was kind of afraid of that. Guess I was in denial. Can't imagine why it's happening now. I literally haven't added anything in over a year (coral or fish). The problem is that there is no way of manually removing all of it. I'll attach pics tomorrow, but this tank is pretty well crammed with coral. I have over 100 pounds of live rock. I guess chemical treatment is my only option? I really didn't want to go down that road.

For bryopsis would be fluconasal (flux)

 

[Auquanut]

For bryopsis would be fluconasal (flux)

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I've been doing some heavy research. As promised. Pics (I'm SO ashamed) of the tank after I manually removed most of what I could get.

I've seen conflicting opinions as to whether the Flux will affect the macro in my fuge. I'm tempted to leave it until/unless I see damage. Thoughts? Have you personally used this treatment? Any adverse effects?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yep- bryopsis

 

[Auquanut]

Okay. So after exhaustive research, I've ordered Reef Flux. The plan is to dose just under the prescribed dosage. I'll take my carbon reactor and AWC system off line, but keep the fuge going initially. If I see any die off of macro algae, I'll scrap the lot immediately. I won't reduce the lighting as most people claim that the bryopsis in more direct lighting is affected first, and in less direct light it takes longer.

The directions say to turn off the skimmer for the first three days. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning. I'll be treating about 110 total gallons. My skimmer typically produces about a half quart in three days. I can't imagine that would make a significant difference, but I'll tune the skimmer down so there is little to no skimmate. Unless the initial dose would make the skimmer go crazy?

I'll continue my normal autodosing of Alk and Cal while monitoring levels every few days. I'll also keep a close eye on NO3 and PO4. As I've mentioned before, my nitrates have nearly bottomed out due to my not removing the bryopsys like I should for the last few weeks. So I'm not too worried about NO3 in the short term, but my PO4 has remained pretty constant at about .08 to .1. Should I consider tumbling some GFO to keep it from rising too much, or just wait and see?

While most of my research has produced really promising results, there have been a few horror stories. I'm currently making up a lot of extra RO/DI in case things go south in a hurry and I have to do massive or frequent water changes.

When the treatment is over, I intend to put the carbon reactor back on line and change it out weekly for about three weeks. I'll also bypass the 30% water change and just double my AWC schedule for the same three weeks.

Sorry for the long post, but as I've said before, I'm not a big proponent of chemical treatments or drastic measures. Going this route makes me nervous. If it weren't for the magnitude of the problem, and the rate at which it's progressing, I would continue less aggressive measures.

Again, any advice or comments would be welcome.

 

[missourimud]

Were you successful in this??

 

[Auquanut]

Were you successful in this??

Sorry for the late reply. I've had a crazy couple of days.

Yes. I was successful with the reef flux to a certain degree. I pretty much did what I intended. I decided to use 12 capsules and I did turn off the skimmer for the first three days. I also restarted my carbon reactor and AWC system after 17 days instead of waiting the whole three weeks (mistake).

I keep chaeto and caulerpa in the fuge. The caulerpa had some significant die off, but the chaeto seemed to do alright, although the growth pretty well stalled during the treatment. Since the treatment ended, the caulerpa is coming back strong and the chaeto is growing well.

All inhabitants (fish, corals and inverts) came through the treatment with flying colors. Even my pod population seemed unaffected. Visually, it seemed like the treatment had no effect on the corals. Everything from softies to acros seemed to be unaffected, but I tested Alk and Cal every three days and noticed a drop in Alk/Cal consumption during the treatment that I think was more than could be attributed to taking the AWC off line. I had to adjust the autodoser to compensate for the lower demand. I just assume there was a small, but not necessarily detrimental effect on the corals.

I also tested nitrate and phosphate every three days. The biggest issue I encountered was an increase in nitrate. It wasn't unexpected at all. I figured with the bryopsis dying off, and the reduced nitrate control that it provided, coupled with the nitrates that the dying bryopsis released back into the system, the nitrates would rise. Combined with the die-off of the caulerpa and the stalled chaeto growth, the nitrates rose pretty significantly. After the treatment, I'm seeing the nitrates coming back in line.

What I didn't expect was that the treatment didn't seem to have any effect on phosphates. Historically, PO4 has stayed around .10. It stayed solid at .10 through the treatment. After the treatment, it seems to be going down. Closer to .08 right now. Didn't see that coming.

The reason that I say the treatment was successful to a certain degree is because while it seemed that the bryposis was completely eradicated, I can already see some coming back. Apparently, a second treatment is in order.

So. Lessons learned:
1. Don't cheat the system. If you think the bryopsis is completely gone, it probably isn't. Don't end the treatment early. If anything, take it longer than prescribed.
2. Expect a rise in nitrates and understand that there is little you can do about it during the treatment other than reduced feeding or carbon dosing (which I personally wouldn't recommend because you'll have enough changes happening in the tank without it).
3. Track your parameters closely during and after the treatment. They will change throughout the treatment, and then again as the tank recovers. Changes in Alk/Cal dosing will probably be necessary.

I hope my experience with fluconizole helps. Apparently, I'll be doing it again soon.