Boiling tank water releases phosphate

Subarcticreef

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 20, 2023
Messages
31
Reaction score
15
Location
Stockholm
What state or country do you live in
Other International
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Measuring phosphate in tank water that has been heated before analysis contains much more phosphate than non heated ditto. What is the background of this? Is it being released from bacteria, algae, other organisms? Is it released from DOCs in the water? Anyone knows?
 
There are a few possible additional reasons that may influence the result regardless of the breaking down of bacteria, algae, etc:
1. The measured sample wasn’t cooled down to 25C degrees.
2. Oxidation difference
3. Salinity may have changed due to evaporation.

Aside from the points above, like you already have guessed - it should indeed contain more dissolved phosphate and nitrates, because it should breakdown any organic contaminants.

I’m sure Randy can provide additional information about this and I’m also personally curious to hear what kind of results you observed before and after boiling the water.
 
how big of a change are we talking about?

Was the water totally clear or might there have been particulates in it?
Crystal clear water. The increase was approximately 3x.
Would be interesting to hear what other reefers see. The temp was brought to almost boiling and then allowed to cool down to room temp.
 
Crystal clear water. The increase was approximately 3x.
Would be interesting to hear what other reefers see. The temp was brought to almost boiling and then allowed to cool down to room temp.

From what to what?
 
When ATP i heated a phosphate is released. Are the other examples?
 
I asked ChatGPT and this is the answer. But are any of these found in sea/tank water?

Several types of molecules can release a phosphate group when heated, typically through thermal decomposition. Some of these include:

1. Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP): ATP can decompose and release inorganic phosphate (Pi) upon heating, although this process is more commonly associated with enzymatic hydrolysis.
2. Phosphates of organic molecules: Organic phosphate esters, like glucose-6-phosphate or fructose-1,6-bisphosphate, can release phosphate groups when subjected to heat.
3. Polyphosphates: These compounds, which contain chains of phosphate units, can break down upon heating to release phosphate ions.
4. Pyrophosphate (PPi): Pyrophosphate can decompose upon heating to yield phosphate ions.
5. Phosphoric acid derivatives: Various phosphoric acid esters and salts can decompose thermally to release phosphate groups.
6. Nucleotide derivatives: Other nucleotide triphosphates, like GTP, CTP, and UTP, can also release phosphate groups when heated.

It’s important to note that while heating can cause these compounds to release phosphate groups, the exact conditions and efficiency of this process can vary widely depending on the specific molecule and its environment.
 
and then allowed to cool down to room temp.
What is “room temp”?
The tests are usually designed to work with a very tight range of temps, anything outside of these bounds will result with inaccurate readings.

Also, did you make sure no water has been evaporated during this process?
 
What is “room temp”?
The tests are usually designed to work with a very tight range of temps, anything outside of these bounds will result with inaccurate readings.

Also, did you make sure no water has been evaporated during this process?
Approx 22 degrees C.
No significant evaporation.

Test and see what you find!
 
In this case from 0.2 to 0.6.

That seems quite excessive to me unless it was filled with lots of bacteria. Icp would detect all non particulate forms and even small particulates, and folks do not typically see that sort of difference.
 
I asked ChatGPT and this is the answer. But are any of these found in sea/tank water?

Several types of molecules can release a phosphate group when heated, typically through thermal decomposition. Some of these include:

1. Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP): ATP can decompose and release inorganic phosphate (Pi) upon heating, although this process is more commonly associated with enzymatic hydrolysis.
2. Phosphates of organic molecules: Organic phosphate esters, like glucose-6-phosphate or fructose-1,6-bisphosphate, can release phosphate groups when subjected to heat.
3. Polyphosphates: These compounds, which contain chains of phosphate units, can break down upon heating to release phosphate ions.
4. Pyrophosphate (PPi): Pyrophosphate can decompose upon heating to yield phosphate ions.
5. Phosphoric acid derivatives: Various phosphoric acid esters and salts can decompose thermally to release phosphate groups.
6. Nucleotide derivatives: Other nucleotide triphosphates, like GTP, CTP, and UTP, can also release phosphate groups when heated.

It’s important to note that while heating can cause these compounds to release phosphate groups, the exact conditions and efficiency of this process can vary widely depending on the specific molecule and its environment.

In general, we do not need ChatGPT for chemistry in this forum. It is wrong often enough to not be reliable.
 
That seems quite excessive to me unless it was filled with lots of bacteria. Icp would detect all non particulate forms and even small particulates, and folks do not typically see that sort of difference.
Agree. I should mention that I did not filter the samples with (I think) 0.22 mu filters used for ICP.
Perhaps the boiling provides an indirect measure of the amount of bacteria/phytoplankton in the water.
 
In general, we do not need ChatGPT for chemistry in this forum. It is wrong often enough to not be reliable.
It’s far from perfect but it is surprisingly accurate. For simple questions of this type it is certainly good enough.
 
Agree. I should mention that I did not filter the samples with (I think) 0.22 mu filters used for ICP.
Perhaps the boiling provides an indirect measure of the amount of bacteria/phytoplankton in the water.
If you can repeat the observation with samples filtered through either a 0.45 or 0.22 micron syringe filter, we can rule out particulate interference (I understand that your test sample appears to be crystal clear). And once that’s ruled out, I will be glad to try to repeat your observation with my aquarium water. Let me know.

Dan
 
If you can repeat the observation with samples filtered through either a 0.45 or 0.22 micron syringe filter, we can rule out particulate interference (I understand that your test sample appears to be crystal clear). And once that’s ruled out, I will be glad to try to repeat your observation with my aquarium water. Let me know.

Dan
Would love to but unfortunately I don’t have any filters at home.
 
Last edited:

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top