Bolus dosing

[Garf]

Advocating a new method that should only be safely performed with his product is a means of attracting new sales.

With free advertising on threads with normally decent folk getting into skirmishes.

 

[Mo.]

I for example dose sodium hydroxide at night. I test at the same time every morning (after final dose before lights on). I get a stable number each day I test. I don’t have an alk monitor, but I have zero doubt my graph would look very similar to yours up until my first dose at 1am. That graph would then show a gradual increase up until my final dose at 6am.
Fantastic claims require fantastic results. I don’t see anything fantastic here.

So you’re saying here that sodium hydroxide does the same as the balling Alk mix in terms of pH and Alk trends??

In which case, if you’re confident of that, you could dose the NaOH as a bolus and produce similar results too??

In which case, I dare you to try it and take photos. I could then explain to you why you’re whole livestock died and why the tank had a white out.

They do not do the same thing and before Garf tries it with Kalk. Kalk would do the same and a bolus would wipe out the tank.

So, no you’re wrong. Hydroxides don’t do the same thing….. they are different.

I suspect this is why they’ve said not to try it with other mixes. Some have hydroxides in them….

 

[Mo.]

Garf- Thanks for quoting me above. What was the reason?

 

[Mo.]

With free advertising on threads with normally decent folk getting into skirmishes.

Maybe, but just answer the questions. No need for a skirmish.

No need to dismiss as
Measurement error or other such excuses.

 

[Garf]

before Garf tries it with Kalk

Kalk slurry aeration

…and they dismissed at my (our) attempts at REAL science …. :p:p …. hopefully this will save us some money thanks for inventing/improvising/posting Getting another tank Thursday and gonna feed it with this lamp eventually. I’ve put 710 grms of kalk in the bubbler which should last a few...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Mo.]

Again, false. A skimmer will not raise pH 100% of the time

Are you injecting CO2 into yours ?

 

[Mo.]

Kalk slurry aeration

…and they dismissed at my (our) attempts at REAL science …. :p:p …. hopefully this will save us some money thanks for inventing/improvising/posting Getting another tank Thursday and gonna feed it with this lamp eventually. I’ve put 710 grms of kalk in the bubbler which should last a few...

www.reef2reef.com

So you agree?! lol

 

[Garf]

So you agree?! lol

First overdose in 20 years from kalk

 

[Mo.]

First overdose in 20 years from kalk

That’s good going…..

 

[danimal1211]

So you’re saying here that sodium hydroxide does the same as the balling Alk mix in terms of pH and Alk trends??

In which case, if you’re confident of that, you could dose the NaOH as a bolus and produce similar results too??

In which case, I dare you to try it and take photos. I could then explain to you why you’re whole livestock died and why the tank had a white out.

They do not do the same thing and before Garf tries it with Kalk. Kalk would do the same and a bolus would wipe out the tank.

So, no you’re wrong. Hydroxides don’t do the same thing….. they are different.

I suspect this is why they’ve said not to try it with other mixes. Some have hydroxides in them….

I didn’t say any of that at all. I specifically said I dose throughout my lights off period. I chose sodium hydroxide for its high ph but this requires the dosing to be spread out.
As far as insults go I admit my previous comment may have been back-handed and I apologize. You are taking offense and throwing quite a few not so back-handed insults at a lot of people in this thread much less deserving of them than me.

 

[Mo.]

If anybody takes offense, then I apologise, but my remarks are always in response and I keep apologising if anybody takes offense- it’s not intentional, but I am swimming upstream on this thread as you can see.

You did equate the effects of hydroxide dosing to the results I showed?

Hence the analogy….

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

An you clarify what these graphs represent?

I assume the bottom two are alk? Under what scenarios?

Is there a pH graph that does with a spread out dosing of alk?

 

[Mo.]

An you clarify what these graphs represent?

I assume the bottom two are alk? Under what scenarios?

Is there a pH graph that does with a spread out dosing of alk?

Hi Randy

The top one is a weeks worth of pH monitoring from a probe with hourly readings. I switched to bolus on 11th June.

The third shows one of those days magnified into more frequent measurements, this is the gist of the pH spike after dosing
You can see the sudden spike at the bottom of the curve and then the dip before the lights come on and the photosynthetic boost.

The second graph shows the ALK readings through a whole day. With 5 measurements one 30
Mins before the dies. Another 30 minutes after the dose showing very little rise and then. A few more readings throughout the day showing a gradual decrease then a small dip, but an overall drift from peak to trough of about 0.2dKH which I found surprising as well.

These are standard charts taken straight from the apex monitor and app.

My ALK usually runs at around 8.5, but I didn’t alter the Alk dose from 600 and it gradually drifted and stabilised at 7.5 ish.

My plan was to increase the Alk bolus dose, but I subsequently switched back to kalk as previously explained.

Cheers
Mo

 

[Mo.]

You’re missing my point. The “bolus method” is new and just so happens to come from someone who has financial ties with the method and claims only their supplements work..

Agreed- but I probably would have been equally surprised if he started to promote Competing balling salts, so I get the commercial aspect.

I also suspect there is an element of a disclaimer as there are many competing products that contain hydroxides and we know that if somebody (not so experienced) tried this with a hydroxide containing element, instead of balling salts, it may wipe their tank out and they would claim that they tried the bolus method and it wiped out the tank…..

That’s just my interpretation.

Again- remember, I use kalk. I am not in the FM payroll. I just run a big reef tank, that’s 1/3 to 1/2 full of coral
And continues to be stocked.

I have only used kalk or balling on this tank, so I tried the bolus dosing and posted my graphs because there was so much controversy about it and my findings were as described by the originators to my surprise.


I would also like to know. Can kalk precipitate trace elements over time and make them accumulate. Is that likely or theoretically plausible?

 

[cloak]

Just out of curiosity, if "bolus" didn't exist can you still achieve the same results? Is it really that complicated so to say? AI in a tank? Still learning...

 

[Mo.]

Just out of curiosity, if "bolus" didn't exist can you still achieve the same results? Is it really that complicated so to say? AI in a tank? Still learning...

There are many ways to get good results.

Whether bolus is better, I don’t know I haven’t used it long enough.

But it does raise up the pH higher than standard balling method ( which is a
Long established method as well as Randy’s 2 part) from what I have seen and it also gives a very stable alkalinity throughout the day - which is also seen with kalk dosing. Kalk is a very high pH solution and other high pH options have the slight concern of an overdose can cause a wipeout, where with bolus alk dosing, that doesn’t seem to be the case- or at least not so easily, which is a good bonus point in its favour.

 

[reefluvrr]

Hello @Mo. Can you help me understand what I am not seeing in my tank's pH chart and possibly your pH chart as well compared to what Doug Dorrat's example chart showed in Frag Garage's podcast at 40 minute 25 second mark?
He explained that when the bolus 1st gets injected, he gets an increase right away from 8.15 to about 8.25 pH.

My tank size is about 150 Litres (40 gallon)
Here is my initial pH before my 60ml of Fauna Marin Balling KH is injected at 6:30 a.m. with pH a 7.86.

In my case, I have not yet seen an increase in a jump in pH from direct injection of the bolus right away. Here is another shot of my pH at 6:50 a.m.

pH only shot up to 7.9

I started using Fauna Marin Bolus method earlier this week when I finished using up my ESV B-Ionic two part.
My pH is low since I fed Alan Vo's bacteria concoction to the tank about two days ago.

Maybe I am not injecting a big enough bolus into the tank or could the pH still be suppressed from my feeding?
That is why I would like to ask if you have an immediate increase in pH when you 1st inject your bolus into your tank?
Any insight is greatly appreciated!

 

[cloak]

Hmm... Seems complicated.

Do I really need Co2 for a planted tank?

 

[Mo.]

Hello @Mo. Can you help me understand what I am not seeing in my tank's pH chart and possibly your pH chart as well compared to what Doug Dorrat's example chart showed in Frag Garage's podcast at 40 minute 25 second mark?
He explained that when the bolus 1st gets injected, he gets an increase right away from 8.15 to about 8.25 pH.

My tank size is about 150 Litres (40 gallon)
Here is my initial pH before my 60ml of Fauna Marin Balling KH is injected at 6:30 a.m. with pH a 7.86.

In my case, I have not yet seen an increase in a jump in pH from direct injection of the bolus right away. Here is another shot of my pH at 6:50 a.m.

pH only shot up to 7.9

I started using Fauna Marin Bolus method earlier this week when I finished using up my ESV B-Ionic two part.
My pH is low since I fed Alan Vo's bacteria concoction to the tank about two days ago.

Maybe I am not injecting a big enough bolus into the tank or could the pH still be suppressed from my feeding?
That is why I would like to ask if you have an immediate increase in pH when you 1st inject your bolus into your tank?
Any insight is greatly appreciated!

I’ll show you what inmeannn my graph in a sec.

What you should do is work out how much Alknyou need to dose for your system to keep a stable alkalinity at whatever level you want to keep. Usually around 8.5 dKH

When you know what your stable total daily dose is, then you can dose that amount just before your peak
Lights come on. It has been suggested that you have a rapid rise in lights to peak say over 30
Mins max.

When I did this for my big tank I needed a total of 600ml of alk. I then started dosing this amount at 10.30-10.45 with lights on peak at 11.15 (from memory)

You may need 60 or maybe slightly more to keep your alk at 8.5.

I’ll show you the pH spike that occurs below

 

[Mo.]

I’ve circled in red. There is a sudden rise in pH, then a small dip. When the lights hit peak, you get a photosynthesis driven increase in pH. The unusual bit
Is that sudden rise in pH but as it goes day to day, the pH peak gets even higher and this effect seems to accumulate, which apparently is against scientific principles and part of the debate.

I wouldn’t overly worry about it though.

You can just carry on with normal balling or other method to keep your alk and calcium dosed.

A higher pH is more desirable for tank health. And bolus dosing seems to provide a higher overall pH than standard balling dosing….. everything. Else remains the same, so it seems like a good add on for reef tank health.

There are other ways to get high tank pH like Kalkwasser dosing, but this can be hazardous if not researched and done carefully, but can be a very successful technique.

There are other dosing methods too. All of these methods work. Some reeders like one method, others like another.

I wonder if in your graph the pH boost is very small as you do have a little rise at the start. It may be that your bolus dose is just small. I did see a gradual increase in tank pH levels over a few weeks. And the same happened each time I went back to bolus. You might see the same as you carry on.