Bolus dosing

[BeanAnimal]

My apologies sir. This reads differently this morning. So if Why is left, Nobody is right, I don't give a darn and I don't care are more entertaining- who is playing center field?

Because, not who. Who is on first.

Thanks - back to bolus dosing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

There was a discussion of whether other components were bolus dosed or not. That is what I was addressing. Its not all bolus, so no, neither I, nor I think others discussing it, were sure what the bolus dose terminology applied to.

In any case, it is now clear.

I have followed this thread closely from the first post.

It is my opinion, as stated dozens of pages back, that there are at least two groups of people talking past each other about different things. That is why I keep asking "what works" when people say "it works".

You outlined numerous claims made in the videos several posts back and I think there a few not mentioned, (broken/repair of buffer system, disease reversal or something to that effect, etc.).

I am very interested (as I think mosts here are) in not only proving/disproving the pH and alkalinity effect claims, but also in context, the rest of the claims. "I tried it and my tank looks better" means nothing to me and a single graph or chart pulled from a tank (to me) does not correlate to proof of anything. I don't think I am on an island here.

Your thoughts on the topic have added clarity but I am not sure that some of those arguing are doing so in context.

 

[DutchReefer420]

The 600 mL comment is certainly not an appropriate way to assess whether a test result is near the limit of error of any method. Of course the alk changed some. No one is saying it didn’t. But the larger the volume of tank water, the smaller the alk change, and no matter the method used, adding 600 mL of alk supplement to larger and large volumes of water will at some tank size become undetectable.

i'm bolus dosing 2.3 DKH 270ml solution on a 600L system, should this also be near the limit of error of any mehod?

 

[Garf]

i'm bolus dosing 2.3 DKH 270ml solution on a 600L system, should this also be near the limit of error of any mehod?

According to a calculater 270mls saturated bicarb solution in a 600 litre is only 1.2 DKH. Is that the increase you detect?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

i'm bolus dosing 2.3 DKH 270ml solution on a 600L system, should this also be near the limit of error of any mehod?

2.3 dKH is a large bolus and is not near the limit of most test methods. But without a test of alk before and after dosing, and a similar one when dosing that same 2.3 dKH is spread out, it doesn't address the various ak claims made by FM.

That said,

 

[DutchReefer420]

2.3 dKH is a large bolus and is not near the limit of most test methods. But without a test of alk before and after dosing, and a similar one when dosing that same 2.3 dKH is spread out, it doesn't address the various ak claims made by FM.

That said,

For the bolus dose i already did this a few weeks back..
gave al the measurments before and after.

cheers.

 

[DutchReefer420]

So late last night it seem to have droped 0.5DKH.
i have not been increasing the dose the last few days because it looked stable at 7.7DKH

It dropped from 7.7DKH at 19:30 to 7.2DKH at 07:30 the next morning just before the bolus dose.
I put this consumption in the calculator and added the extra amount to the dose.

The bolus dose starts at 08:05 and runs for a few minutes
I took a water sample right before the dose starts and of 1 min after the dose has finished

amount dosed 270ML of FM Balling light should be around the 2.3DKH

30-5-2024
7.7DKH at 00:37
7.7DKH at 19:30

31-5-2024
7.2DKH at 07:30
7.2DKH at 07:58
7.8DKH at 08:11 (1 min after the dose had finished)
8.1DKH at 08:15
8.1DKH at 08:22 (Lights come on at 08:30)
7.9DKH at 08:59
7.7DKH at 09:30
7.7DKH at 10:00
7.7DKH at 13:30

like has been said already we're making circels....

 

[Garf]

like has been said already we're making circels....

Looks like both you and Mo are calculating added DKH based on carbonate, rather than bicarb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

For the bolus dose i already did this a few weeks back..
gave al the measurments before and after.

cheers.

Can you point it out? In this post you use a different dose, and seem to claim that alk never changes at all. Ever. Even FM doesnt claim that.

Bolus dosing

The question is does it work. A lot of people in germany tested this method and it does. You can see it by going in to german forums or just in the yt comment section of the videos from fm. not everybody uses dosing pumps. there are people that dose once a day by hand. one of the biggest public...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[twentyleagues]

On that point, I have a couple of bits of information that were supplied by an expert chemist friend reading this thread but not participating.

1. He took 303.9 mg of FM Carbonate mix in 1 L of ultrapure water. Alkalinity titration (in duplicate) of that solution revealed 10.02 dKH.

303.9 mg of sodium bicarbonate would give an alk of 10.13 dKH
303.9 mg of sodium carbonate would give an alk of 16.05 dKH

Thus, it looks to be pure bicarbonate unless it has a lot of moisture or other nonalk components in it as well (which cannot be ruled out entirely)

2. He took an FT-IR of both high purity NaHCO3 and FM "Carbonate Mix". They are indistinguishable and fit sodium bicarbonate and not sodium carbonate, although there may possibly be a very small amount of carbonate in each one.

So knowing its "mostly" bicarb does that shed any light on claims of stabilized alk or ph?

 

[Reefing Madness]

Thread is under Review

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So knowing its "mostly" bicarb does that shed any light on claims of stabilized alk or ph?

No, since it unclear what it is being compared to. But the only way that it can boost pH is that after the initial small dip, aeration may blow off some CO2 and raise the pH (the bigger the alk boost the bigger that is) plus the effect of photosynthesis.

Alk stability always needs to be compared to something, but if you add 2 dKH of alk with bicarbonate, alk necessarily rises by 2 dKH as soon as it mixes in.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

We are reopening this thread. Please keep the conversation civil moving forward. Thanks!

 

[Garf]

We are reopening this thread. Please keep the conversation civil moving forward. Thanks!

Excellent.

like has been said already we're making circels....

The Fauna Marin dosing instructions may be wrong, with evidence supplied from Randy's friend that it is probably just bicarb (giving expected DKH increase for carbonate, not bicarb). If true, this would indicate "missing alkalinity" of 50%, would it not?

Fauna Marin Lab

high-level ICP, IP and titration water analysis

lab.faunamarin.de

Can we get back to point of the thread?

Did you get dosage info from Faunas calculator? Not having any of this Alk additive myself, do these containers supply dosing instructions?

If this is confirmed then the "repairing the buffer system" pitch by necessity would be disproved. The missing Alk just hasn't been added in the first place. Therefore the "tabletop" would also seem to be an actual reduction in uptake, as mentioned previously (post #206), not a magical reappearance of Alk (that wasn't added initially anyway).

Cheers

 

[rtparty]

Excellent.

The Fauna Marin dosing instructions may be wrong, with evidence supplied from Randy's friend that it is probably just bicarb (giving expected DKH increase for carbonate, not bicarb). If true, this would indicate "missing alkalinity" of 50%, would it not?

Fauna Marin Lab

high-level ICP, IP and titration water analysis

lab.faunamarin.de

Did you get dosage info from Faunas calculator? Not having any of this Alk additive myself, do these containers supply dosing instructions?

If this is confirmed then the "repairing the buffer system" pitch by necessity would be disproved. The missing Alk just hasn't been added in the first place. Therefore the "tabletop" would also seem to be an actual reduction in uptake, as mentioned previously (post 269), not a magical reappearance of Alk (that wasn't added initially anyway).

Cheers

I found it odd that multiple users dosing FM alkalinity kept claiming X amount dKh being added but then only “seeing” half or so when testing.

Seemed pretty clear to me calculations or instructions were wrong somewhere.

 

[KStatefan]

Excellent.

The Fauna Marin dosing instructions may be wrong, with evidence supplied from Randy's friend that it is probably just bicarb (giving expected DKH increase for carbonate, not bicarb). If true, this would indicate "missing alkalinity" of 50%, would it not?

Fauna Marin Lab

high-level ICP, IP and titration water analysis

lab.faunamarin.de

Did you get dosage info from Faunas calculator? Not having any of this Alk additive myself, do these containers supply dosing instructions?

If this is confirmed then the "repairing the buffer system" pitch by necessity would be disproved. The missing Alk just hasn't been added in the first place. Therefore the "tabletop" would also seem to be an actual reduction in uptake, as mentioned previously (post 269), not a magical reappearance of Alk (that wasn't added initially anyway).

Cheers

The dosing instruction are in the Balling Light Dosing Instructions. Another "chemical" company that uses wrong units.

 

[Lasse]

Thank you for the reopening. I start an experiment yesterday in order to clarify if I can claim a "delay" as my measurements indicate before. I let my KH increase from 7.6 to 8.6 and after that just switch of my dosing. Last dosing was 21:00 yesterday. My KH has decline with 0.6 till now (15:41). -0.3 dKH during the first 15 hours and -0.3 last three hours.
When I rise my dKH - there was no sign of any delay in my system - it rise as should based on the doses.

I´ll comeback with more information later on

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Seemed pretty clear to me calculations or instructions were wrong somewhere.

That would be a truly shocking mistake if it is true.

Can someone track down the exact FM directions for making the alk dosing solution from their powder?

I have complete confidence in my friends alk titration data, but he may not have mixed it to FM concentration specs.

Then we can see if there is a mistake in the alk claim.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you for the reopening. I start an experiment yesterday in order to clarify if I can claim a "delay" as my measurements indicate before. I let my KH increase from 7.6 to 8.6 and after that just switch of my dosing. Last dosing was 21:00 yesterday. My KH has decline with 0.6 till now (15:41). -0.3 dKH during the first 15 hours and -0.3 last three hours.
When I rise my dKH - there was no sign of any delay in my system - it rise as should based on the doses.

I´ll comeback with more information later on

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for the update, Lasse. You dosed what to boost it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok, found the mixing directions: