Bolus dosing

[twentyleagues]

Perhaps this thread then has helped me in one sense being I'll now make one single dose lights out of formate. Something easy enough to test and confirm once test tank back up and running.

I do a single afr dose usually at 6pm that is midday or highest light intensity for no other reason than it works for me best at that time. I could do it at 5 am while I am having my coffee, interested in what you see happen with your night time dosing. I am not dosing that much though 15ml/day to keep 9ish alk.

 

[MnFish1]

As I’ve said many times, only came to get an answer for the alk and pH trends I keep seeing.

The rest is irrelevant to me.

Whether it’s better or worse will
Come out in the wash, but some claim it is.

All I said is that it’s comparable to any other method I’ve used in terms of running a successful reef tank, which I have done over many years.

breaking that statement down and asking for clarification of what those terms mean is irrelevant to the question.

Why do the alk and pH graphs look
Like that consistently and why when separating the doses as normal dosing are the curves different with less stable alk readings. If the readings look different between the methods, then clearly the test as enough sensitivity to repeatedly show a difference.

The rest is up to FM and their testers to show whether it’s better than other tech

OK - here is my answer - your graph is totally inconclusive as to what is happening. You have not done a controlled experiment (and I didn't expect you to do that) - however, you're making assumptions/recommendations based on the fact that your graphs mean anything. Unfortunately - IME, they do not - I have seen periods like this when we had company for the weekend.

 

[KGV]

After 40 pages of comments, does the bolus method hold or fold?

 

[rtparty]

After 40 pages of comments, does the bolus method hold or fold?

The broken buffer system is pure fantasy.

Bolus dosing may grow corals just fine. There’s no apparent data to say if it is better or worse than any other method.

There is no delay in alk detection using bicarbonate, or carbonate, or hydroxide. There is with formate (AFR) and acetate (Salifert all in one).

 

[Garf]

After 40 pages of comments, does the bolus method hold or fold?

Appears folk have been unwittingly taking part in an experiment, at least in part, exploring a lower average alkalinity level than they desired. Fauna Marin must be stockpiling DKH. A true test of "Bolus" would be to replace ALL Alk, not a fraction of it.

 

[Lasse]

I watched the English version of FM:s explanation how the Bolus method work and why it is a good policy to use NaHCO3 (bi-carbonate) instead for kalkwater or Na2CO3. among other things - it shows that adding Na2CO3 cause flocculation of a white stuff that among other thing says to affect the onset of Old Tank syndrome. First of all - the precipitate consists of CaCO3 - limestone and sometimes calcium phosphate - and how that can affect an onset of Old Tank Syndrome is beyond both my pay grade and my intellect.

But - yes doing the addition as shown in the video will precipitate limestone but no one dose either lime water or Na2CO3 this way - just because of this behaviour, Dosing of both lime water and Na2CO3 is done slowly in small portions in places with high throughput of water. hence either the pH spike or the concentration will cause ant precipitation. I dose my Core 7: 3a+b in my return apartment in the sump. It has a flow trough of around 30 l/min and an internal circulation of around the same amounts. I dose 1 ml/min in these stormy water - this 1 ml is diluted in around 60 L of water immediately as it hits the surface of the water. There is no chance of precipitation and if it should happen - the precipitation is to at least 99 % pure limestone (IMO).

In my world, it doesn't matter if you add pure sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) or sodium carbonate (Na2CO3). If you add NaHCO3 to water with a pH higher than about 8.15, a small part of the HCO3 ion will be transformed into an H ion + a CO3 ion. Slight pH reduction. If the pH is below about 8.15, the bicarbonate ion takes up a hydrogen ion and forms carbonic acid - pH increase. If you add Na2CO3 - at our pH - most of it will form HCO3 in the water by taking up a hydrogen ion to the carbonate ion - the pH is raised.

The formula below describes the equilibrium equation for our main buffer system. If any of the substances here (or the ions) (CO2, H2CO3, HCO3 and CO3) are artificially added then the equilibrium will shift with changes in pH as a result. The HCO3 ion is the balance point in the equilibrium. Adding it can depending on the starting pH either a lowering or raising of pH, Added of the substances on the right (CO3) always leads to an increase and addition of the substances on the left always causes a decrease. To make things even more difficult, you can also affect the basic pH (and thus the balance in formula) using external hydrogen ions or external hydroxide ions.

But the bottom line is that it doesn't matter if we use bicarbonate, carbonate or hydroxide ions to increase the alkalinity (In the pH levels present and normal in an aquarium) - most of the addition remains as bicarbonate (if bicarbonate is added) or is converted to bicarbonate if any of the others are added

There i two more things that has been mentioned as positive with the method. A pH increase with time and an alkalinity plateau will be formed. Calcification lower the pH. CO3 ions is on of the building bricks in the calcification. If one ion is removed from the system - around one bicarbonate ion will be transformed in to new CO3 ions in the system - loosing one hydrogen ion - pH depletion will follow - not a pH increase. I have problems with this increase of pH. The same with the plateau - where is it coming from?

The only times I have seen a alkalinity plateau and an increase in pH is when my calcification not works as it should....

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I watched the English version of FM:s explanation how the Bolus method work and why it is a good policy to use NaHCO3 (bi-carbonate) instead for kalkwater or Na2CO3. among other things - it shows that adding Na2CO3 cause flocculation of a white stuff that among other thing says to affect the onset of Old Tank syndrome. First of all - the precipitate consists of CaCO3 - limestone and sometimes calcium phosphate - and how that can affect an onset of Old Tank Syndrome is beyond both my pay grade and my intellect.

But - yes doing the addition as shown in the video will precipitate limestone but no one dose either lime water or Na2CO3 this way - just because of this behaviour, Dosing of both lime water and Na2CO3 is done slowly in small portions in places with high throughput of water. hence either the pH spike or the concentration will cause ant precipitation. I dose my Core 7: 3a+b in my return apartment in the sump. It has a flow trough of around 30 l/min and an internal circulation of around the same amounts. I dose 1 ml/min in these stormy water - this 1 ml is diluted in around 60 L of water immediately as it hits the surface of the water. There is no chance of precipitation and if it should happen - the precipitation is to at least 99 % pure limestone (IMO).

In my world, it doesn't matter if you add pure sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) or sodium carbonate (Na2CO3). If you add NaHCO3 to water with a pH higher than about 8.15, a small part of the HCO3 ion will be transformed into an H ion + a CO3 ion. Slight pH reduction. If the pH is below about 8.15, the bicarbonate ion takes up a hydrogen ion and forms carbonic acid - pH increase. If you add Na2CO3 - at our pH - most of it will form HCO3 in the water by taking up a hydrogen ion to the carbonate ion - the pH is raised.

The formula below describes the equilibrium equation for our main buffer system. If any of the substances here (or the ions) (CO2, H2CO3, HCO3 and CO3) are artificially added then the equilibrium will shift with changes in pH as a result. The HCO3 ion is the balance point in the equilibrium. Adding it can depending on the starting pH either a lowering or raising of pH, Added of the substances on the right (CO3) always leads to an increase and addition of the substances on the left always causes a decrease. To make things even more difficult, you can also affect the basic pH (and thus the balance in formula) using external hydrogen ions or external hydroxide ions.

But the bottom line is that it doesn't matter if we use bicarbonate, carbonate or hydroxide ions to increase the alkalinity (In the pH levels present and normal in an aquarium) - most of the addition remains as bicarbonate (if bicarbonate is added) or is converted to bicarbonate if any of the others are added

There i two more things that has been mentioned as positive with the method. A pH increase with time and an alkalinity plateau will be formed. Calcification lower the pH. CO3 ions is on of the building bricks in the calcification. If one ion is removed from the system - around one bicarbonate ion will be transformed in to new CO3 ions in the system - loosing one hydrogen ion - pH depletion will follow - not a pH increase. I have problems with this increase of pH. The same with the plateau - where is it coming from?

The only times I have seen a alkalinity plateau and an increase in pH is when my calcification not works as it should....

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you Lasse. I agree.

 

[Lasse]

By mistake - between 12:00 to 13:30 today I add a whole daily dose of Na2CO3. My pH rising from 8.11 to 8.43 and dKH from 8.1 to 9.2. I stopp the dosing and now I just have to wait and see if this accidental dosage induces some plateau in alkalinity or not. The aquarium seems to handle this,

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

By mistake - between 12:00 to 13:30 today I add a whole daily dose of Na2CO3. My pH rising from 8.11 to 8.43 and dKH from 8.1 to 9.2. I stopp the dosing and now I just have to wait and see if this accidental dosage induces some plateau in alkalinity or not. The aquarium seems to handle this,

Sincerely Lasse

Bold bolus dosing.

 

[Garf]

By mistake - between 12:00 to 13:30 today I add a whole daily dose of Na2CO3. My pH rising from 8.11 to 8.43 and dKH from 8.1 to 9.2. I stopp the dosing and now I just have to wait and see if this accidental dosage induces some plateau in alkalinity or not. The aquarium seems to handle this,

Sincerely Lasse

Perhaps tomorrow you could accidentally blast everything with light for a couple of hours before noticing the problem and then continuing as normal for the rest of the lit period?

 

[danimal1211]

Perhaps tomorrow you could accidentally blast everything with light for a couple of hours before noticing the problem and then continuing as normal for the rest of the lit period?

Closely watch your ph, when it hits 8.23 you should feel an aligning of the universe as described less than 3 minutes into the video

 

[Lasse]

Bold bolus dosing

Yep

Perhaps tomorrow you could accidentally blast everything with light for a couple of hours before noticing the problem and then continuing as normal for the rest of the lit period?

Have fixed the problem. Light was on 65 % when the doses got in

Closely watch your ph, when it hits 8.23 you should feel an aligning of the universe as described less than 3 minutes into the video

I miss that......

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Garf]

Closely watch your ph, when it hits 8.23 you should feel an aligning of the universe as described less than 3 minutes into the video

Mine never gets that low, lol. The evils of kalk
I've still not figured out Claudes conclusion that kalk stops working after a while, perhaps he heard it from one of the scientists that has been researching the bolus method for the last 18 months, lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Mine never gets that low, lol. The evils of kalk
I've still not figured out Claudes conclusion that kalk stops working after a while, perhaps he heard it from one of the scientists that has been researching the bolus method for the last 18 months, lol.

I guess my 20 year old reef tank that never used anything except kalk, was severely in the syndrome. lol

 

[Lasse]

I start to post in this thread because of the discussion of a "delayed" alkalinity rise when dosing, I had some indications of that in my system - indications that was hard to explain with normal dose - response theory. To test that I dosed up to 8.6 dKH and just stop dosing. The response was as you see in post #919 rather direct - no delay. I thought that it was the end of my doubts - but you can seldom be glad for a long period in this hobby.

When I of mistake did a "Bold bolus dosing" my dKH keep rising for 2 hours after last dose. My pH rise but start to decrease directly after last dose. The pH probe is placed downstream the intake to my KH director, hence Its not an effect of bad water mixing. But I do not have any explanations.....

I will continue with no alkalinity dosing during the night and tomorrow morning at least

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Garf]

I start to post in this thread because of the discussion of a "delayed" alkalinity rise when dosing, I had some indications of that in my system - indications that was hard to explain with normal dose - response theory. To test that I dosed up to 8.6 dKH and just stop dosing. The response was as you see in post #919 rather direct - no delay. I thought that it was the end of my doubts - but you can seldom be glad for a long period in this hobby.

When I of mistake did a "Bold bolus dosing" my dKH keep rising for 2 hours after last dose. My pH rise but start to decrease directly after last dose. The pH probe is placed downstream the intake to my KH director, hence Its not an effect of bad water mixing. But I do not have any explanations.....

Sincerely Lasse

I'm just guessing how the KH Director works but Is it possible the testing line to the director is fouled, too long, contaminated with something that effects its immediate accuracy?

 

[elysics]

I'm just guessing how the KH Director works but Is it possible the testing line to the director is fouled, too long, contaminated with something that effects its immediate accuracy?

On that note, could the delay and plateau be an artifact of the difference between fixed endpoint titration and inflection point titration etc since bolus dosing messes with the starting pH and the makeup of the different carbonate species?

Some of the chemistry goes slightly above my head so might be a stupid question

 

[SDchris]

When I of mistake did a "Bold bolus dosing" my dKH keep rising for 2 hours after last dose. My pH rise but start to decrease directly after last dose. The pH probe is placed downstream the intake to my KH director, hence Its not an effect of bad water mixing. But I do not have any explanations...

I have a feeling this an artefact of the tester. For a similar reason as to why there is a minimum retest time of 1 hour.
If you repeat the test, would it be possible to also test manually, say with a salifert test kit?

 

[Lasse]

I'm just guessing how the KH Director works but Is it possible the testing line to the director is fouled, too long, contaminated with something that effects its immediate accuracy?

Nope - as you can see it answer to the first doses and pH rise 0.11, 0.1 and 0.09 directly. However - the accuracy is around 0.2 dKH.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Knowing how the KH director works I have difficult to see any artefacts there. However - I have placed the intake there the flow could have changed from how it was in the beginning - I doubt it though. I will probably repeat the test with a rather high dose in the morning and I will place the intake there I can see that it is a good mixing.

Sincerely Lasse