Boomer's IM 20G Nano

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Coincidently, I just got an ATI test back this week and checked it just now. Results: /share/e9832d5d3ff4f95f1cd2

My 20 gallon nuvo nano looks like this:

Fish seem to be hiding, lol.

I say this just to really hammer that you should not chase the numbers: My nitrates are 0.01 mg/l (or 0.01 ppm) and phosphates are 0.12 mg/l (or 0.12 ppm).

That's not the "right" ratio according to many. But am i going to do anything??? No way!!! Tank looks great. Numbers don't mean anything without context. In my context, zero nitrate and phosphate much higher (but still pretty low), is just fine.

I feed way more than my copperband, wrasse, and two clowns eat, frozen mysis, black worms, and pellet food. I add phyto, live and dead.

Another misleading number in context:

My alkalinity is 7.41 dkh, which is a little lower than i should "want." But i use All for Reef in this tank--and that supplement shows low alk on tests often because its a bacterial kind of alk supplement; the coral/bacteria that use/create the carbonate occurs inside the coral itself--so low number are typical. Tropic marin is working on a more accurate test kit for this supplement. But in my tank, since other trace elements are higher, like magnesium, i don't want to add more supplement than i have been.

Anyway, all said, just get a routine going... stick to it.... stability is the key whatever your numbers are.... ATI recommended i do 20% water changes weekly (5 gallons)... I think you could do about the same and it will all stabilize out your tank over time. Just match water well.

 

[boomeraudio]

My thought is that dinos like ultra low nutrients where phosphate and nitrates are out of whack and also like systems where nitrates and phosphates are very high and out of whack.


Todayish:


Early january (last year):

later in january (last year)

later in january (last year)

later in january (last year)

in feburary (last year)

later in february (last year)


No sure of numbers in 2020, but likely not stable for a while and then stabilized somewhat when things were looking up??

Then dinos hit this winter... after removing sand... changing ratios and balance and now dinos continue when phosphate 0.17 and nitrate 10ppm...

If following redfield ratio it's less about the numbers--its more about the ratio of the numbers --16 part nitrate to 1 part phosphate or god knows what, but some like ratio is likely where tanks are balanced and dinos are not a problem:

In my opinion, your issues have to do with stability. I would put the test kits away for a little while or don't react to them.

Don't chase these numbers. Just look at your tank, and take reasonable, slow, actions.

In other words, your monti isn't bleaching because of your light. It's bleaching because its SPS and your water parameters are not stable. Changing your light is going to make this worse---your changing yet another thing and destabilizing the system more.

IMO, your nitrates now (10ppm) and your phosphates (0.17) are out of whack (redfield would say aim for 2.72ppm nitrates with 0.17ppm phosphates (0.17 x 16 = 2.72)).

The nitrates you have are exponentially higher feeding nuisance algae. You don't have enough life/corals to eat up the rest of the nitrate and its feed nuiance dinos, etc.

I would not heavily feed, feed reasonably. Physically remove dinos during water changes. Do black outs as you absolutely need to kick the dinos in the pants. Add live phyto, copepods, maybe some bacteria, and an hang on refugium with macro algae---these things proliferate and create stability--so that feeding inputs by us and exports by us change the balance of the system less (diversity of life is like alkalinity buffer for nutrients IMO....you add more food and life eats and aborbs it, the balance doesn't change; you add less food, and population of life can sustain itself for while and the balance doesn't change...t= the goal is not some particular number or test result--the goal finding a balance and keeping it stable... stability is king for corals and balance is king for keep nuisance algae/dinos at bay and out competed by other life we like...). Reduce light to like 4-6 hours a day--if corals react poorly, lean toward six, if they are fine, lean towards 4 hours.

Do 20% water changes weekly. Run a skimmer. Run some carbon. Do this for another two months or so--consistently. I would not even bother testing.... See where you are at then....

Bottom line is that you need stability... not more change... Do things to bring those nitrates down so that not exponentially higher than phosphates... But this does not mean you need to test constantly. You've diagnosed the problem IMO. Just give your tank what it really needs--slow changes towards nitrate/nutrient control. You don't have enough corals to justify the heavy feeding approach...that just adds more nutrients that are still out of balance..

yes. I can tell the tank new in terms of maturity, regardless of its actual "age" in months because Coraline algae is not taking over. You could dose some of that as well.

Really amazing information and advice here. Going to do a water change today. Order some CopaPods.

The tank is about 15 months old. Started with dry rock clearly ha ha.

I’ll stick with the water changes consistently. I was afraid to do them because that’s what I thought brought on the Dinos. I didn’t ever remove the sand bed. Just vacuumed it. That’s when the issue seemed to start again.

I really appreciate the help and advice!

 

[ShepherdReefer]

Looks great.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Really amazing information and advice here. Going to do a water change today. Order some CopaPods.

The tank is about 15 months old. Started with dry rock clearly ha ha.

I’ll stick with the water changes consistently. I was afraid to do them because that’s what I thought brought on the Dinos. I didn’t ever remove the sand bed. Just vacuumed it. That’s when the issue seemed to start again.

I really appreciate the help and advice!

Yup--just get into a routine... deal with dinos manaully, black outs... but aim to keep water parameters stable....give it three months... nothing good happens fast in a reef tank.... Despite being 15 months old, the tank is taking time to mature, but some of that is lack of stability during that 15 months is my guess.... Some people just have really hard time with dry rock... Add phyto, copepods, coraline alage supplement---e.g., life, to help...


good luck!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Julian sprung (the guy who wrote the book on reefkeeping literally):

Listen at about 30:00 minutes on... at 32:33, "the main issue with dinoflagellate blooms is a disturbance in the aquarium...whether...you've vacuumed the whole bottom... really disturbed that stable stable biological bed.... no bullet solution... other than trying to get your tank back to stability, which often takes time...."

He also throws mud on the idea of throwing nutrients at the problem. ..

 

[boomeraudio]

Julian sprung (the guy who wrote the book on reefkeeping literally):

Listen at about 30:00 minutes on... at 32:33, "the main issue with dinoflagellate blooms is a disturbance in the aquarium...whether...you've vacuumed the whole bottom... really disturbed that stable stable biological bed.... no bullet solution... other than trying to get your tank back to stability, which often takes time...."

He also throws mud on the idea of throwing nutrients at the problem. ..

Yup. Vacuumed the sand bed is what did it. Dang. Weekly water changes is the course of action now!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I think the biggest thing in this hobby to get over, control of, for me was that im a "fix it" kinda of guy... try to be pro active. Get it done...

But in this hobby, stability and only small incrimental change leads to success... Doing less is often doing WAY more... that was HARD for me! Lol.

If i do a major clean up on the tank, pump, refugium, etc., i always triple check that im not doing too much too fast.

I think its fine if a pump and such move the sand bed a bit over a night or a week... that will help keep a system stable... and vacuuming a shallow sand bed isnt per se terrible... i think its unnecessary (wave makers, sand sifters, and proper flow keep sand beds clean and allow life to live in it) ... but can be done if its filthy, cyno,etc.....

It's just that vacuuming a sand bed --especially the whole thing--is insant change. That rapid change is what is bad, not necessarily the vacuuming... vacuum, 10% a month, and who cares, the system stays stable, no instant change, for example...

If you want to help speed stability, really check the alk, salinty, and temp of your change water each week. Match it well. Let the change water mix for like a week too before using. I think that helps. The changes will bring down nutrients and promote a baseline for the system if match the change water well.

When the dinos subside some, get more corals in there too. Easy stuff. Stuff that sucks up nutrients. Gorgonians and leathers and mushroom, xenia, zoos, hammers... then as the system gets real stable swap out those corals for whatever you really like...(if different)...

I cant say enough about dosing live phyto and cope pods either... my nano tank was a disaster in September with Dinos...

Four months later... just glued some frags on rocks now that were in the sand bed--because dinos were killing them...

Some of these fish, corals, may go in the 200 gallon being setup now, but i like this nano so much--maybe not!!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I had a touch of dinos return last week during the day and then subside at night. I've kept the same water change schedule (20% a week), but also:

• increased All for Reef dose from 2-3 milliliters a day to a solid 3 milliliters (raising alkalinity slightly is the hope)
• not changed any feeding (pellets, frozen mysis and black worms, reef roids, and live phyto (about 10 ml per day).
• added 10 ml of microfactor7 per day for the five days or so
• took a turkey baster to the rocks and to all of the sand bed twice... stirring up some detritus to put it into the water column for corals to eat or get skimmed away. The tank was cloudy for a couple hours each time. Coral seemed to like it.
• added 2 ml of nitrate for two days straight to help feed the microfactor7. This raised nitrates to detectable levels when i tested on the third day (less 5pmm but something on the test showed up). Since then stopped dosing nitrate.
• i have carbon running in the refugium with the red macro algae (but this has been like this since i started the tank pretty much)
• i dosed a 1 ml of elimi-phos rapid to lower phosphate (last ICP has 0.13 phosphate). But for the dinos i would not have done this. In hind sight i probably would not/should not have done this. My green slimer acro reacted slightly to the dose i think. small patches of lightened collor and tissue recession. I think from too rapid phosphate reduction.

Today and yesterday there has been no dinos Mostly i think this is because of microfactor7 additions and the slight raising of nitrates to feed the bacteria. If i had to guess the bacteria is outcompeting the dinos. The reduction of phosphate could have also helped--but i endangered a nice acro so i will not do that again.

Just an example of somewhat modest reaction to a slight onset of dinos.

 

[boomeraudio]

I had a touch of dinos return last week during the day and then subside at night. I've kept the same water change schedule (20% a week), but also:

• increased All for Reef dose from 2-3 milliliters a day to a solid 3 milliliters (raising alkalinity slightly is the hope)
• not changed any feeding (pellets, frozen mysis and black worms, reef roids, and live phyto (about 10 ml per day).
• added 10 ml of microfactor7 per day for the five days or so
• took a turkey baster to the rocks and to all of the sand bed twice... stirring up some detritus to put it into the water column for corals to eat or get skimmed away. The tank was cloudy for a couple hours each time. Coral seemed to like it.
• added 2 ml of nitrate for two days straight to help feed the microfactor7. This raised nitrates to detectable levels when i tested on the third day (less 5pmm but something on the test showed up). Since then stopped dosing nitrate.
• i have carbon running in the refugium with the red macro algae (but this has been like this since i started the tank pretty much)
• i dosed a 1 ml of elimi-phos rapid to lower phosphate (last ICP has 0.13 phosphate). But for the dinos i would not have done this. In hind sight i probably would not/should not have done this. My green slimer acro reacted slightly to the dose i think. small patches of lightened collor and tissue recession. I think from too rapid phosphate reduction.

Today and yesterday there has been no dinos Mostly i think this is because of microfactor7 additions and the slight raising of nitrates to feed the bacteria. If i had to guess the bacteria is outcompeting the dinos. The reduction of phosphate could have also helped--but i endangered a nice acro so i will not do that again.

Just an example of somewhat modest reaction to a slight onset of dinos.

Thanks for the info! I’ve noticed that they start to come out during the day and subside at night. I’ve just stuck to simple water changes so far. Rocks are growing algae (not dinos). Last test had 2ppm nitrate and .05ppm phosphate so the water changes is leveling things out.

Corals seem to be happy...but man that sand bed is ugly ha ha. Any recommends on nitrates to dose?

 

[Nick Steele]

If you got algae growing that is a step in the right direction.

My Dino’s came back and I was very upset with myself for letting it happen. Wasn’t a bad onset but was around on my glass didn’t see any on the rocks at all. Yesterday I increased my temp to 82f and today I seen very little Dino’s hoping they stay away now!

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Thanks for the info! I’ve noticed that they start to come out during the day and subside at night.

Happy to try to help. I've had the same issues in the same tank, lol. If dino are coming out at day and dying at night, a UV should help there. But that would also likely kill beneficially bacteria that helps outcompete dinos and nuisance alage? See my suggestion at the end of this post for what i might do..

I’ve just stuck to simple water changes so far.

Over time, i think this will help mature and stabilize everything at a consistent level. I would keep this up. I do and works for me and many others.

Rocks are growing algae (not dinos).

Manual removal is key here. Two options: fingers and/or suction when doing water changes. This gentle and does not remove the bacteria also on the rock. Other option is use a tooth brush or the like with suction during water changes. This is more effective in removal, but also remove some bacteria on the rocks and creates a cleaner spot for anything grow back; it can create a spot of nuisance algae.... No right answer here. The tooth brush to me is appropriate if its REALLY BAD. If just a few spots, i'd use fingers with suction and see if things get better over say a month. If so, just keep that up.

Last test had 2ppm nitrate and .05ppm phosphate so the water changes is leveling things out.

That's all good if you ask me...

Corals seem to be happy... Any recommends on nitrates to dose?

I probably would not dose nitrates. The phosphate and nitrates seem okay to me. If you had a larger coral population or big corals dosing could be an option, maybe. But with just frags and dry rock that has not matured--no coraline algae growth going gang busters--i think taming nutrients is the better idea and adding nitrates would add to problems.

Note that i only added nitrates because my ICP test said i had 0.01 ppm. That's very low.

Because i was adding the microbacter7, i wanted some nitrates to feed that bacteria. Because of modest coral population i have and their size and refugium alage--i think available nitrates are being used up by corals and macro. The bottle directions suggests nitrates in a case like this to feed the bacteria additions.

In your case, i would probably not add nitrates. if you did, i use NeoNitro. Very small amounts. Follow the instructions.

Corals seem to be happy...but man that sand bed is ugly ha ha.

Overall advice:

1. Less agreesive option: do not run UV. just dose microbacter7 and phyto as stated below or by directions. More aggressive option: install a UV and run. Green Machine 24 watt would work and you can get it to fit standing upright in the back of a NUVO 20. Run it for two weeks. During this time dose 10 ml of Microbacter7 and 10ml of live phyto a day. Keep alkalinity stable. The phyto and microfactor7 will be harmed by the UV most likely but so will dinos at night. You're not dosing dinos so their population should decrease and helpful bacteria and phyto population--although harmed by UV--should be more than dinos because your dosing them everyday.
2. for these two weeks: run carbon (say 1/4 cup changing it twice a week if cheaper carbon, passively in bag is fine). run your skimmer on high, cleaning it regularly. manually remove nuisance algae daily or so and during water changes. A less aggressive approach would be to not mess with the sand bed at all. A more aggressive approach that might help (or could make things worse): Use a turkey baster and gently turnover say 10 or 20% of the sand bed say every two or three days with your pumps and skimmer and UV on high. The idea with agreesive approach is to get dinos into the water collumn--since you got them going now at a high population--and let the UV sterilize them and the skimmer remove them. Overall i am not a huge fan of doing anything other than light stirring of sandbeds (to feed coral and keep it from saturating in detritus), but you've got a dino population -- so using UV and stirring the sand bed can work IME. the downside is that you also kill helpful bacteria and destablize things a bit. It's judgment call....
3. after two weeks, remove the UV. Keep running carbon. Keep manually removing algae. Leave the sand bed alone. Keep dosing microbacter7 and phyto. Keep up with regular maintenance and water changes. see how things go in couple three months.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Yesterday I increased my temp to 82f and today I seen very little Dino’s hoping they stay away now!

I think there is something to having temp around this too! I am running mine at 80-81F up from 78F... i forgot to mention i did this too.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Oh and consider adding a small bristletooth tang like a kole tang... like 1 inch one. Machines at eating nuisance algae. Obviously not a permanent addition, but could if you're okay with rehoming when larger--perfectly acceptable if you ask me.

 

[boomeraudio]

Happy to try to help. I've had the same issues in the same tank, lol. If dino are coming out at day and dying at night, a UV should help there. But that would also likely kill beneficially bacteria that helps outcompete dinos and nuisance alage? See my suggestion at the end of this post for what i might do..



Over time, i think this will help mature and stabilize everything at a consistent level. I would keep this up. I do and works for me and many others.



Manual removal is key here. Two options: fingers and/or suction when doing water changes. This gentle and does not remove the bacteria also on the rock. Other option is use a tooth brush or the like with suction during water changes. This is more effective in removal, but also remove some bacteria on the rocks and creates a cleaner spot for anything grow back; it can create a spot of nuisance algae.... No right answer here. The tooth brush to me is appropriate if its REALLY BAD. If just a few spots, i'd use fingers with suction and see if things get better over say a month. If so, just keep that up.

That's all good if you ask me...


I probably would not dose nitrates. The phosphate and nitrates seem okay to me. If you had a larger coral population or big corals dosing could be an option, maybe. But with just frags and dry rock that has not matured--no coraline algae growth going gang busters--i think taming nutrients is the better idea and adding nitrates would add to problems.

Note that i only added nitrates because my ICP test said i had 0.01 ppm. That's very low.

Because i was adding the microbacter7, i wanted some nitrates to feed that bacteria. Because of modest coral population i have and their size and refugium alage--i think available nitrates are being used up by corals and macro. The bottle directions suggests nitrates in a case like this to feed the bacteria additions.

In your case, i would probably not add nitrates. if you did, i use NeoNitro. Very small amounts. Follow the instructions.



Overall advice:

1. Less agreesive option: do not run UV. just dose microbacter7 and phyto as stated below or by directions. More aggressive option: install a UV and run. Green Machine 24 watt would work and you can get it to fit standing upright in the back of a NUVO 20. Run it for two weeks. During this time dose 10 ml of Microbacter7 and 10ml of live phyto a day. Keep alkalinity stable. The phyto and microfactor7 will be harmed by the UV most likely but so will dinos at night. You're not dosing dinos so their population should decrease and helpful bacteria and phyto population--although harmed by UV--should be more than dinos because your dosing them everyday.
2. for these two weeks: run carbon (say 1/4 cup changing it twice a week if cheaper carbon, passively in bag is fine). run your skimmer on high, cleaning it regularly. manually remove nuisance algae daily or so and during water changes. A less aggressive approach would be to not mess with the sand bed at all. A more aggressive approach that might help (or could make things worse): Use a turkey baster and gently turnover say 10 or 20% of the sand bed say every two or three days with your pumps and skimmer and UV on high. The idea with agreesive approach is to get dinos into the water collumn--since you got them going now at a high population--and let the UV sterilize them and the skimmer remove them. Overall i am not a huge fan of doing anything other than light stirring of sandbeds (to feed coral and keep it from saturating in detritus), but you've got a dino population -- so using UV and stirring the sand bed can work IME. the downside is that you also kill helpful bacteria and destablize things a bit. It's judgment call....
3. after two weeks, remove the UV. Keep running carbon. Keep manually removing algae. Leave the sand bed alone. Keep dosing microbacter7 and phyto. Keep up with regular maintenance and water changes. see how things go in couple three months.

More great advice and I appreciate it.

The algae on the rocks is pretty stuck on there and won't remove with a syphon. Tooth brush removes some but definitely not all...the good news is that coraline seems to be rapidly forming on these rocks. Could that be a sign of stability? I'm doing a water change (20%) today and will scrub remove as much algae as possible without disturbing the coral.

I've been running a UV sterilizer for quite some time now. I have the AIO IM UV unit in one of the back compartments. The UV should not be used after this 2 week period or for a prolonged period of time? I also have their skimmer (one speed) running full as well.

I have Bacter7 but it sounds like I need something to support it like Phyto - is Algae Barn the best place to get this? Is there a product you prefer?

Edit: Will this work? Reef Phytoplankton (looks like it'll deliver tomorrow if I order right away).

Last time I ran carbon this happened as well, as there were no nutrients in the tank at all. They were completely eliminated :/.

Here's the wild card - I'm going away in a week and a half. My sister in law will feed the fish and shrimp but has no idea how to do any of this. I supposed I could make a list of things to do and have a camera set up on the tank. Any advice here?

 

[boomeraudio]

If you got algae growing that is a step in the right direction.

My Dino’s came back and I was very upset with myself for letting it happen. Wasn’t a bad onset but was around on my glass didn’t see any on the rocks at all. Yesterday I increased my temp to 82f and today I seen very little Dino’s hoping they stay away now!

It's interesting that you mention this - running a high temp isn't dangerous for the coral? I recently switched to a cobalt heater and it's fantastic, but I've got it set at 78. It's stable. I thought that anything over 80 was dangerous?

 

[Nick Steele]

Reports are that temps in the wild of 80+ can cause bleaching but there’s many people who run their tanks in 80-83 just fine. I currently have mine at 81-82 and nothing is upset actually my hammer is opened a little more.

 

[boomeraudio]

Oh and consider adding a small bristletooth tang like a kole tang... like 1 inch one. Machines at eating nuisance algae. Obviously not a permanent addition, but could if you're okay with rehoming when larger--perfectly acceptable if you ask me.

The Hawaii ban might have me looking all over for one of those now

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

More great advice and I appreciate it.

The algae on the rocks is pretty stuck on there and won't remove with a syphon. Tooth brush removes some but definitely not all...the good news is that coraline seems to be rapidly forming on these rocks. Could that be a sign of stability? I'm doing a water change (20%) today and will scrub remove as much algae as possible without disturbing the coral.

I've been running a UV sterilizer for quite some time now. I have the AIO IM UV unit in one of the back compartments. The UV should not be used after this 2 week period or for a prolonged period of time? I also have their skimmer (one speed) running full as well.

I have Bacter7 but it sounds like I need something to support it like Phyto - is Algae Barn the best place to get this? Is there a product you prefer?

Edit: Will this work? Reef Phytoplankton (looks like it'll deliver tomorrow if I order right away).

Last time I ran carbon this happened as well, as there were no nutrients in the tank at all. They were completely eliminated :/.

Here's the wild card - I'm going away in a week and a half. My sister in law will feed the fish and shrimp but has no idea how to do any of this. I supposed I could make a list of things to do and have a camera set up on the tank. Any advice here?

I think youre on the right track. UV running long term is a matter of what works for you. I generally just use it as i need but others run it. Whatever your tanl settles in at.

Generally i think less is more. So if no change or improvement if u shut it off that would be a win in my book. But if its helpping nothing wrong with it running.

Check list for sister helps. Call her when she helps at first maybe.

Phyto from a reputable place is good. I only worry about ebayers if the fertilizer is weird or not eaten up mostly because of technique. Algae barn is good. I hear good things about reef nutrition but ebay is probably great too. Check reviews.

I like carbon for algae issues personally. Generally shoot for low nutrients on tests but feed heavy. High in high out. Carbon helps that. Unless you have corals eating up the nutrients, though, no reason to have high nutrients or feed heavy if u ask me.. thats algae growth...

 

[boomeraudio]

I think youre on the right track. UV running long term is a matter of what works for you. I generally just use it as i need but others run it. Whatever your tanl settles in at.

Generally i think less is more. So if no change or improvement if u shut it off that would be a win in my book. But if its helpping nothing wrong with it running.

Check list for sister helps. Call her when she helps at first maybe.

Phyto from a reputable place is good. I only worry about ebayers if the fertilizer is weird or not eaten up mostly because of technique. Algae barn is good. I hear good things about reef nutrition but ebay is probably great too. Check reviews.

I like carbon for algae issues personally. Generally shoot for low nutrients on tests but feed heavy. High in high out. Carbon helps that. Unless you have corals eating up the nutrients, though, no reason to have high nutrients or feed heavy if u ask me.. thats algae growth...

Would dosing NOPOX be similar to running carbon?

 

[jaganshi066]

Looking good! Get ready for some algae outbreak soon! Mine started about 4 weeks in but I also had a reading of nitrate and phosphates.

When do algae outbreaks start? I’ve had my tank for about 2.5 months and so far so good!