Breathing fast post meds

[CJBuckeyes]

I've been treating 3 fish (foxface and clown pair) for the last month with the help of this forum. I had several fish die quickly in my DT, but could not positively ID if it was brook or velvet. The clowns looked like obvious sloughing with large patches on their foreheads. The fox face looked more like powdered sugar down its back.

Treatment 1: CP (NLS) + Prazi for 14 days with a Rally bath at day 4. From the rally bath onward, everyone looked really good. Since the foxface wasn't eating throughout the 14 days, I moved all the fish to a bucket with Rally for 12 hours while I sterilized the tank. Two days after being back in the tank post meds the foxface breathing became very rapid.

Treatment 2: Coppersafe for 12 days with Kanaplex every other day for the first 6 days, salinity to 1.015. The foxface would eat small amounts of Nori, but no frozen. He would just grab the frozen and spit it out. Was having to do daily 50% water changes to keep ammonia in check and the fish were looking great, so at day 12 I did a 12 hour Rally bath in a bucket and sterilized the tank. Second day post meds and the fox face is breathing very rapidly again (plenty of O2 exchange).

Here are my theories of what could be happening:

• The disease, whether brook or velvet, is not being eradicated. I took such extreme measures with maintaining therapeutic levels and with sterilization so that I'm hopeful it's not this.
• The long Rally bath could have some impact on gill function?
• Secondary bacteria infection?
• Related to Amquel usage post meds? Seems like a long shot..

I'm stumped. @Humblefish any advice? Not sure where to go from here. Thanks!

 

[melypr1985]

The long Rally bath could have some impact on gill function?

How was the bath done? In a bucket with a powerhead or airstone the whole time? Was there a heater in there? If yes to the heater, was there a thermometer to let you know that the water didn't get too hot? How much rally was dosed in the bucket?

 

[CJBuckeyes]

Thanks for the reply! The Rally bath was done in a bucket with an airstone and a heater. I check temp every few hours, stable at 78F.

The Rally was dosed as per instructions, 14.8ml per 5 gallons.

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks for the reply! The Rally bath was done in a bucket with an airstone and a heater. I check temp every few hours, stable at 78F.

The Rally was dosed as per instructions, 14.8ml per 5 gallons.

Since the heavy breathing is happening right after the long dips, it seems likely that could be the culprit here. When they go back into the clean QT, what is in there with them? Any meds in that water or just plain jane saltwater? They seem to get better as time goes on in the QT before the next dip?

 

[CJBuckeyes]

They were placed back into the sterilized QT with no meds. Temp match at 78, salinity match at 1.015.

I pretreated the sterilized sponge in the HOB with MB7 and Dr Tim's.

 

[CJBuckeyes]

They seem to get better as time goes on in the QT before the next dip?

They did get much better under treatment.

 

[melypr1985]

They did get much better under treatment.

You mean after treatment?

 

[CJBuckeyes]

I meant during treatment they got better. Post treatment is where the rapid breathing with the fox face occurs.

 

[omykiss001]

Just out of curiosity did you test ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? I only ask as that is really the only way to be assured the bacteria in a bottle worked. I had a dud bottle of Dr. Tim's that did not do the job. Just a worry as you sterilized the tank and then used the bacteria in a bottle and then appears did treatment #2 where you said you needed to keep up with ammonia. If you checked these levels and ammonia and nitrite are 0 and there is some nitrate then not the issue, however, if you are getting ammonia buildup that could be why the fish are breathing so rapidly especially if you also have copper and and antibiotic in there too. I have a suspicion you bio-filter may not be keeping up.

 

[melypr1985]

I meant during treatment they got better. Post treatment is where the rapid breathing with the fox face occurs.

Right, but I'm asking if they got better again after time in the QT before the next dip? Or was it only while in the rally dip that they stopped breathing so fast?

 

[CJBuckeyes]

I have a suspicion you bio-filter may not be keeping up

My biofilter was definitely not keeping up. I'm using a seachem ammonia badge and was doing frequent large water changes to keep ammonia in the "safe" zone. I have not been testing Nitrite or Nitrates, as I read that these aren't very toxic to fish.

 

[CJBuckeyes]

Right, but I'm asking if they got better again after time in the QT before the next dip? Or was it only while in the rally dip that they stopped breathing so fast?

During both treatments they got better. The clowns were fine after the first Rally dip. It's the foxface that keeps having issues. I don't know if the CP/Copper or the Rally is the treatment that is helping. It did appear as if the Rally had a very positive effect in the beginning of each treatment.

 

[omykiss001]

My biofilter was definitely not keeping up. I'm using a seachem ammonia badge and was doing frequent large water changes to keep ammonia in the "safe" zone. I have not been testing Nitrite or Nitrates, as I read that these aren't very toxic to fish.

They are not, to me they just indicate how well the entire bio filter is working if you don't the complete breakdown to nitrate the bio-filter is not working fully. With the drugs you are using ammonia is just another antagonist that will inflame their gills and make it harder for them to get O2

I have used over and over the instant ocean bio-spira (as long as the date on the bottom is at least a year away) to cycle my QT and or hospital tanks in <24 hours. As I said I had a bad bottle of Dr. Tims and have stuck with the instant ocean stuff as it has worked time and time again. You might give that stuff a shot once you are done the the Kanaplex, don't know how well the denitrifying bacteria will hold up when not established with active anti-biotic in the water column. Certainly has worked over and over for me when I need to clean and setup anew and needed a working bio-filter ASAP.

 

[CJBuckeyes]

Good question, and it's beyond my skills in biology. I was going off of this quote from humble fish on his thread "the DOs and DON'Ts of Quarantine":

• DO test for ammonia often (and pH if doing hyposalinity); DON’T worry about nitrates, phosphates, even nitrites in a fish QT. Ammonia is toxic to ALLmarine animals, even at low levels. However, most other parameters only affect fish at extremely high levels; unlike with corals/inverts.

 

[CJBuckeyes]

DO test for ammonia often (and pH if doing hyposalinity); DON’T worry about nitrates, phosphates, even nitrites in a fish QT. Ammonia is toxic to ALLmarine animals, even at low levels. However, most other parameters only affect fish at extremely high levels; unlike with corals/inverts.

Re-reading this.. I have been running hypo and have not been monitoring PH, and both times the rapid breathing started was during the sterilization where I had to mix up new water very quickly.

Anyone know the effects of low PH on fish?

 

[melypr1985]

Anyone know the effects of low PH on fish?

Everything I can find only states that "fluctuations in PH can be harmful to fish" but doesn't state what it does to them or how. Hmm.. must wait for somebody more knowledgeable to come along and explain it to both of us.

 

[omykiss001]

Re-reading this.. I have been running hypo and have not been monitoring PH, and both times the rapid breathing started was during the sterilization where I had to mix up new water very quickly.

Anyone know the effects of low PH on fish?

Generally speaking freshly mixed saltwater will have a high pH letting it mix for awhile allows CO2 to dissolve and lowers the pH which equilibrates in the 8.0 to 8.4 range. However, newly mixed saltwater may also have lower O2 levels as well, but the rapid breathing should subside as the O2 levels stabilize over a few hours. Sounds like your fish kept breathing rapidly, might be wrong here? I suspect the ammonia along with meds might be the primary cause. However, if it only happens with new water after cleaning and lasts a short while I would suggest mixing the saltwater and allowing it to aerate overnight so the pH and O2 levels stabilize, at mixing for at least 3-5 hours with good surface agitation before use.

 

[CJBuckeyes]

Figured I'd post a video of the Foxface breathing fast, see if I'm missing something. I started the video on the clown and noticed what could be some white stringy poop. Very frustrated at the moment..

 

[Brew12]

I don't know anything to say to help but..

[HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG]

I think that is how we can flag this post to get you more help

 

[melypr1985]

I saw the poo as well. Non of the meds you've used so far treat intestinal worms so I'm not entirely surprised to see it.

The foxface looks pretty good aside from the heavy breathing. I know you did prazi... I'm wondering if that didn't cut it and there's still flukes in there. General Cure would treat both flukes and intestinal worms of the clownfish. OF course before doing that you can always do a freshwater dip to confirm they are still there. Could explain why the rally baths help for a short time.