BRS TV Investigates Trace Element idea

[rcpalmer1]

There has been more new information about salt in the last few month than in the last 10 years due to BRS testing. We all know the different salts have different major elements. Has anyone thought of running icp test on fresh mixed salt to see what trace elements each have?

 

[Bulk Reef Supply Verified Sponsor]

I know that we do have some sort of ICP test in the works, but we don't have it on the video schedule quite yet.

 

[csb123]

Yay

 

[rcpalmer1]

With my refugium my nutrients stay low. My biggest issue with my tank is icp has most trace elements at 0. The main reason I do water changes is for trace elements. I had just ordered 6 icp kits and were going to mix up some different salt mixes and send in. If BRS has something planned I will.wait as I am sure their method will be more accurate than mine.

 

[pigmo]

With my refugium my nutrients stay low. My biggest issue with my tank is icp has most trace elements at 0. The main reason I do water changes is for trace elements.

i'm sure you know this, but math logic dictates partial water changes will not keep up with trace element depletion. it helps but inevitably levels will trend lower and lower with time.. until you reach zeros.

only 100% water changes will keep up, and nobody does that for many reasons! i feel with the advent of icp on the hobby level, we should all move past the simplistic technique of change x% of water every y weeks... if you care about tace elements ;Cat;Clown;Clown;Chicken;Cat;Cat

 

[rcpalmer1]

i'm sure you know this, but math logic dictates partial water changes will not keep up with trace element depletion. it helps but inevitably levels will trend lower and lower with time.. until you reach zeros.

only 100% water changes will keep up, and nobody does that for many reasons! i feel with the advent of icp on the hobby level, we should all move past the simplistic technique of change x% of water every y weeks... if you care about tace elements ;Cat;Clown;Clown;Chicken;Cat;Cat

I have ran the Red Sea 4 part trace elements. I just got my second box of Tropic Marin part C. I am currently replacing 400ml of salt water every hour and dose 12 ml of Brs 2 part along with the TM part C every hour. I might send of another icp next week and see how things are doing.

 

[Chad3407]

I have ran the Red Sea 4 part trace elements. I just got my second box of Tropic Marin part C. I am currently replacing 400ml of salt water every hour and dose 12 ml of Brs 2 part along with the TM part C every hour. I might send of another icp next week and see how things are doing.

Part c will not add elements. It's only designed to replace 70 of the known elements in sea water at the rate of alk consumption. You will need to use tropic Marin k+ and a- to add the 17 most used elements. Reefdudes had a YouTube video last week with Lou from tropic Marin discussing this. It's a very good video to watch.

 

[Big E]

i'm sure you know this, but math logic dictates partial water changes will not keep up with trace element depletion. it helps but inevitably levels will trend lower and lower with time.. until you reach zeros.

only 100% water changes will keep up, and nobody does that for many reasons! i feel with the advent of icp on the hobby level, we should all move past the simplistic technique of change x% of water every y weeks... if you care about tace elements ;Cat;Clown;Clown;Chicken;Cat;Cat

How do you know that's true?

Do you have any data on depletion rates on any of the trace elements in any marine aquariums?

 

[rcpalmer1]

Part c will not add elements. It's only designed to replace 70 of the known elements in sea water at the rate of alk consumption. You will need to use tropic Marin k+ and a- to add the 17 most used elements. Reefdudes had a YouTube video last week with Lou from tropic Marin discussing this. It's a very good video to watch.

First i want to say thanks for helping. In text i can come across more argumentive than trying to understand. For so reason I just cant grasp the difference in what Lou is saying. I watched the video at your suggestion. A couple of months ago Me, Lou, and Randy from BRS were having this same discussion. Maybe I don't know what definition Lou is using for Ionic Balance, Replenish, and Supplement. Randy mentioned that Ryan had changed to wording on the trace element video but is still got the Ryan said to mix 168g of TM C and dose at a 1 to 1 rate with there 2 part. Just recently Rayn referenced it again the how much does 2 part cost video.

If the part C replaces what is removed based on Alk consumption that is what I am in need of. I mix my water. Then as the corals consume Alk drops along with trace elements. I add 2 part to bring up Alk and the C to replace the trace. Lou said the C has 70 trace elements in it.

I just pulled a icp test. I will see next week what is happening. My last test was 6 weeks ago and at that time Br was 17 and Sr was 6. Everything else was good. My AWC was off for 2 weeks but we will see how the C did. I have not added any other supplements.

 

[pigmo]

How do you know that's true?

Do you have any data on depletion rates on any of the trace elements in any marine aquariums?

hi e, we only have 1.5 years worth of icp results for data, so not much. and during that time we've only done 2 sets of water changes.

i don't think we need to drill that far down and examine each icp element depletion - let's take alk demand as an extreme example. will only water changes keep up with alk use on a mixed reef with no dosing?

as trace elements are probabaly used slower than alk, it'll take longer for traces to go 'too low' but eventually would be depleted as alk would, just not as quickly, yea?

but are trace elements just a sidebar discussion - don't people keep all sorts of great tanks just dosing the macros? plus there's no consensus as to which traces are actually critical vs helpful vs unnessary, is there? heehee it's a big ask but... big-e, could you spitball a shortlist of important traces from your sps experience for us? ;Clown;Clown;Clown

i was thinking before, that as some salt mixes have elevated elements, that those companies should make recommendations for % and frequency for water changes to keep up levels, but i guess it'd be too complicated as each person's system/coral selection has different demands.

 

[Big E]

I think we both agree there's a lot of questions and no answers..........I don't have a short list of trace elements. I only track alk, calc and occasionally K and Mg.

I just have a problem with claims that water changes can't keep up with depletion rates.......it's a general blanket statement with no proof.

Alk/Calc demand is easy to document and follow

Trace elements.......no one really knows, which is my point.

Someone mentioned talking to Lou(Tropic Marin) on this............I heard him make claims on depletion rates and he had no data, nor did he have data on whether water changes can keep up with depletion rates yet he made the same claims you did.

I'm not picking on Lou because there are dozens of companies that make the claim trace element dosing is needed yet no one has ever shared any data on depletion rates of any of these elements, other than that some are in skeletons of acros and then using fuzzy math to claim that is the usage rate based of alk/calc consumption.

Just my experience........30 years ago I was told I needed to dose trace elements.....at that time HWmarinemix was the trace element of choice. I never saw any difference after a year so I stopped.........here we are today and still no data.

I would agree they are needed if you don't do water changes or have a calcium reactor...............to me your just chasing your tail following a snap shot of an ICP test which for the most part is unreliable as most of the trace elements, especially trace metals, fall below their levels of detection. There was also a well documented article showing inaccuracies.

This is one of those things that no one can claim right or wrong. I have my 20 years of anecdotal evidence keeping Acroporas that I trust, so that's where I stand. No data as well but at least I have that, which I'm happy to share with others.

Then there is "Dutch reef"(no water changes).........he has his anecdotal evidence as well and he doesn't really dose any trace elements other than iron.

For now I stand unconvinced in the trace element dosing needs of any aquarium. I'm open minded if there was something tangible to believe. Why no before/after pictures from any of these manufacturers/companies?.............every time I ask them I'm ghosted.

hi e, we only have 1.5 years worth of icp results for data, so not much. and during that time we've only done 2 sets of water changes.

i don't think we need to drill that far down and examine each icp element depletion - let's take alk demand as an extreme example. will only water changes keep up with alk use on a mixed reef with no dosing?

as trace elements are probabaly used slower than alk, it'll take longer for traces to go 'too low' but eventually would be depleted as alk would, just not as quickly, yea?

but are trace elements just a sidebar discussion - don't people keep all sorts of great tanks just dosing the macros? plus there's no consensus as to which traces are actually critical vs helpful vs unnessary, is there? heehee it's a big ask but... big-e, could you spitball a shortlist of important traces from your sps experience for us? ;Clown;Clown;Clown

i was thinking before, that as some salt mixes have elevated elements, that those companies should make recommendations for % and frequency for water changes to keep up levels, but i guess it'd be too complicated as each person's system/coral selection has different demands.

 

[Stigigemla]

I sell a kind of Balling supplements.
Iodine is the one minielement that most often has to be added. In most cases it is tanks with macroalgae refugiums or reactors that has it depleated.
Heavy metals has been the case by 2 with bad brittle coral growth and /or bad green color.
It is so easy and cheap for a salt manufacurer to add trace elements in the salt so I believe they all do it.
But the amount is certainly very different. Most trace elements I believe come as pollutants in the major elements so it might be a lot of those in some salts.
If you run your weekly 10% waterchange it should not be of concern. (Except if You have an algae refugium/reactor).
In most cases by my customers pale coral color is because of low nitrate and/or phosphate.

 

[Big E]

If you run your weekly 10% waterchange it should not be of concern. (Except if You have an algae refugium/reactor).

Your point is well taken on the algae filter...........I've never used one because I prefer other methods for many reasons..............stealing important elements and nutrients from corals is one of them.

If you use the coral skeleton test on what's in algae, they are abound with elements at an alarmingly higher rate than any Sps corals.

 

[pigmo]

oh lordy... not here to advocate any particular approach, or to howl into the wind, so is my last post on this discussion.

here's some data of the traces we dose on a weekly basis. we've calculated our trace element replentishment doses based on one icp result to the next. units are in millilitres, at various concentrations. trace elements are labeled across the top row. it's for our acro heavy system.

as you can see, there is quite heavy usage of certain trace elements.

 

[Big E]

There has been more new information about salt in the last few month than in the last 10 years due to BRS testing. We all know the different salts have different major elements. Has anyone thought of running icp test on fresh mixed salt to see what trace elements each have?

In a direct answer to your question...............no need to wait on BRS.

There is a complete breakdown of every commercial salt in another forum. It's in the chemistry section as a sticky. .............all laid out in tables and measurements of each element per salt brand.

 

[Chad3407]

First i want to say thanks for helping. In text i can come across more argumentive than trying to understand. For so reason I just cant grasp the difference in what Lou is saying. I watched the video at your suggestion. A couple of months ago Me, Lou, and Randy from BRS were having this same discussion. Maybe I don't know what definition Lou is using for Ionic Balance, Replenish, and Supplement. Randy mentioned that Ryan had changed to wording on the trace element video but is still got the Ryan said to mix 168g of TM C and dose at a 1 to 1 rate with there 2 part. Just recently Rayn referenced it again the how much does 2 part cost video.

If the part C replaces what is removed based on Alk consumption that is what I am in need of. I mix my water. Then as the corals consume Alk drops along with trace elements. I add 2 part to bring up Alk and the C to replace the trace. Lou said the C has 70 trace elements in it.

I just pulled a icp test. I will see next week what is happening. My last test was 6 weeks ago and at that time Br was 17 and Sr was 6. Everything else was good. My AWC was off for 2 weeks but we will see how the C did. I have not added any other supplements.

What I got from lou was the part c replaces 70 trace elements in a balanced amount. But there are 17 of those 70 that get used more. Which is why they recommend to use k+ and a-

 

[Chad3407]

I think we both agree there's a lot of questions and no answers..........I don't have a short list of trace elements. I only track alk, calc and occasionally K and Mg.

I just have a problem with claims that water changes can't keep up with depletion rates.......it's a general blanket statement with no proof.

Alk/Calc demand is easy to document and follow

Trace elements.......no one really knows, which is my point.

Someone mentioned talking to Lou(Tropic Marin) on this............I heard him make claims on depletion rates and he had no data, nor did he have data on whether water changes can keep up with depletion rates yet he made the same claims you did.

I'm not picking on Lou because there are dozens of companies that make the claim trace element dosing is needed yet no one has ever shared any data on depletion rates of any of these elements, other than that some are in skeletons of acros and then using fuzzy math to claim that is the usage rate based of alk/calc consumption.

Just my experience........30 years ago I was told I needed to dose trace elements.....at that time HWmarinemix was the trace element of choice. I never saw any difference after a year so I stopped.........here we are today and still no data.

I would agree they are needed if you don't do water changes or have a calcium reactor...............to me your just chasing your tail following a snap shot of an ICP test which for the most part is unreliable as most of the trace elements, especially trace metals, fall below their levels of detection. There was also a well documented article showing inaccuracies.

This is one of those things that no one can claim right or wrong. I have my 20 years of anecdotal evidence keeping Acroporas that I trust, so that's where I stand. No data as well but at least I have that, which I'm happy to share with others.

Then there is "Dutch reef"(no water changes).........he has his anecdotal evidence as well and he doesn't really dose any trace elements other than iron.

For now I stand unconvinced in the trace element dosing needs of any aquarium. I'm open minded if there was something tangible to believe. Why no before/after pictures from any of these manufacturers/companies?.............every time I ask them I'm ghosted.

The one thing I would add is how do we know what trace elements are in the salts we use and at what percentage. No 2 salts are the same so water changes alone are only adding a percentage back to the tank according to the percentage of water volume you remove.

 

[Stigigemla]

There is a great problem here. The corals binds trace elements in the sceletons as they grow.
The amount of the different elements is different for different coral species and for different groth places for one species in the wild too.
In order to determine the coral uptake in tanks we have to decide what species and amount of these the individual tank owner can have. Probably it will depend on light and circulation too.
Luckily it seems like corals bind more trace elements if there is more of them in the water so it is a bit of self regulation here. Macro algae in a refugium has a big span between the lowest and highest uptake so it is probably easier to maintain a balance with a refugium or an algae reactor. I have never seen any data of trace elements in an algae scrubber.

 

[Big E]

I have never seen any data of trace elements in an algae scrubber.

Here is some data on some trace element uptake..........there is plenty more data as well if you do some google searches.

You can also take some of your algae and send it out to an independent lab and get a dry weight breakdown of what's in the algae. It's in the price range of an ICP test.

 

[Stigigemla]

Yes for macroalgae I have seen data but thats not whatwe have in an algae scrubber.