BRS videos, Salinity and Element balance discussion

[adtravels]

Ok, so as many will have seen BRS have produced a very informative series on alk, PH etc. Recently they have been focusing on salinity and long term use of normal salt in Water changes verses NACL free salt.
They are claiming after the 2 year mark in a fast growing tank its best to switch from regular WC to their method. Especially if you are dosing as opposed to a Calcium reactor.
I get all the science behind their rationale.
However, what are peoples opinions on the need to make this switch as they claim. I am interested to know. Thanks

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Ate you talking about the BRS hybrid balling method video where they're adding Tropic marin part c to replenish trace elements after a tank becomes established?

 

[Shirak]

Ok, so as many will have seen BRS have produced a very informative series on alk, PH etc. Recently they have been focusing on salinity and long term use of normal salt in Water changes verses NACL free salt.
They are claiming after the 2 year mark in a fast growing tank its best to switch from regular WC to their method. Especially if you are dosing as opposed to a Calcium reactor.
I get all the science behind their rationale.
However, what are peoples opinions on the need to make this switch as they claim. I am interested to know. Thanks

Part C is dosed not used as a WC. Regular WC with your regular salt mix are still done. The dosing of Part C compensates for the extra Na and Cl that is added when dosing two part and keeps everything in balance so when you do your regular WC things don't get out of whack further and further each time a WC is done. At least that's how I am interpreting their video if I understand correctly. BUT since I am using a CaRx and not 2 part it's not a problem..

 

[adtravels]

Yes thanks,
I do mean their video on the hybrid balling method and the one on salinity.

I am just wondering if people with tanks that are growing really well and are 2-5 years old have seen a need to stray away from just standard water changes. Have the levels become that out of whack? Is it something that larger regular water changes can negate for the most part?

cheers

 

[blasterman]

I watched the video and cringed.

Basically they are claiming standard two part solutions cause excess salinity issues, and when you try to adjust for this over the long term it causes a trace element imbalance.

Yes folks, now sodium chloride which is what sea water is mainly composed of is bad for reef tanks. If you add water to top off your tank you are wreaking the delicate trace element balance in your tank. Yeah....

Pretty sure the one guy makes a comment about calcium reactors being bad because they lower pH. So, all of us using two parts and calcium reactors need to stop.

Experienced reefers see this for what it is, and just an attempt to push their products. Some of their vids are informative, but lately I think they should make late night infomercials selling colon cleansers.

 

[themcfreak]

I watched the video and cringed.

Basically they are claiming standard two part solutions cause excess salinity issues, and when you try to adjust for this over the long term it causes a trace element imbalance.

Yes folks, now sodium chloride which is what sea water is mainly composed of is bad for reef tanks. If you add water to top off your tank you are wreaking the delicate trace element balance in your tank. Yeah....

Pretty sure the one guy makes a comment about calcium reactors being bad because they lower pH. So, all of us using two parts and calcium reactors need to stop.

Experienced reefers see this for what it is, and just an attempt to push their products. Some of their vids are informative, but lately I think they should make late night infomercials selling colon cleansers.

I am not knowledgeable, per se. but the science isn't wrong. 2 part has sodium chloride. By definition, that adds salt to your tank in a manner most people don't account for.

Also, it isn't like BRS pulled this out of nowhere and decided to 'make it up'. The Balling Method from Tropic Marin is tried and true and been around for a very long time. And the entire Balling Method is based on this science. BRS just made a video to make the Balling Method more affordable by using their own 2 part instead of Tropic Marin's. Sure, it sells something, but it isn't completely made up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Bear in mind that BRS folks are not chemists and they sometimes simplify things to the point of misleading readers.

The use of a balanced two part, such as ESV-B-ionic has zero issues with ionic imbalance over time. That is how it is designed. There is no need to do (if you do not want) or to change how you do water changes when using a product like it.

IF you choose to use a DIY two part that consists of just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate or bicarbonate (I do not recommend this), then there is a well known issue that sodium and chloride accumulate, and if you maintain salinity, that tends to push down other ions such as sulfate or potassium.

My DIY two part (when using my third part as specified) partly eliminates this concern since it keeps sulfate and magnesium at proper levels. The original recipe also maintained potassium via its presence in the calcium chloride, but purer versions of the calcium chloride may not have enough and potassium may slowly decline. In this case, regular water changes will help maintain things like potassium, but does it do it perfectly? No. Decades ago, Craig Bingman published models of how well normal water changes fix this issue (he was not modelling my DIY with my third part, which reduces the problem as mentioned above):

Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems

Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Biochemistry of Aquaria

Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
/Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges

Aquarium Frontiers Biochemistry of Aquaria

from the last one:

"These simulations show that at low calcification rates and with what many people would consider to be substantial water exchange rates, calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate can be used to meet the necessary calcium carbonate demand in a mixed aquarium containing a few hard corals, some live rock and live sand, without totally wrecking the composition of the water in the tank. The results of the simulations are laid out in graphical format for everyone to observe and to allow them to come to their own conclusions on this issue.
Fundamentally, my opinions on what constitute the optimal methods of maintaining calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria are unchanged. I continue to prefer to use “balanced” calcium and alkalinity solutions, like limewater, calcium carbonate/CO2 reactors, or for smaller systems, the balanced ionic two-part solutions."

If you use just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate or bicarbonate and then also use the Tropic Marin sodium chloride free salt (Part C), then you can basically offset the problem of salinity displacing other ions such as sulfate or potassium when maintain salinity. If you do not do any water changes, or do them infrequently, this would be especially useful.

 

[paranoid]

Hi Randy, sorry to bring up an old thread but I have been searching through the net but can’t find an answer.

if I’m using some other brands 2 parts dosing (for calcium and DKH) apart from TM and BRS and would like to add TM Balling Part C, is there anyway to calculate how many ml of Part C I should dose according to my daily DKH consumption?

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Randy, sorry to bring up an old thread but I have been searching through the net but can’t find an answer.

if I’m using some other brands 2 parts dosing (for calcium and DKH) apart from TM and BRS and would like to add TM Balling Part C, is there anyway to calculate how many ml of Part C I should dose according to my daily DKH consumption?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Sure.

What brand are you using (want to be sure it doesn't already contain these elements).

We wil use info on this page to get a ratio:

Balling Components | Produktinformationen

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[paranoid]

Hi Randy,

Thanks for your reply. Appreciate it!

The 2 parts that I’m using are not the common big brands lol.

It’s called AquaticExclusive and info as per below.

For Alkalinity

aquaticExclusive KH/ALKALINITY 5KG

www.reefmarketsg.com.sg

33.3ml of stock solution added to 100 L of saltwater will raise alkalinity levels by approximately 1 dKH.

For Calcium:

aquaticExclusive CA/CALCIUM 4KG

www.reefmarketsg.com.sg

9 ml of stock solution added to 100 L of saltwater will raise Calcium levels by approximately 10 PPM

It’s just labeled as “food grade” so I don’t think there’s any elements in it.

Currently I’m dosing around 33ml/day of alk for a 200L tank to meet my daily consumption of 0.5 DKH and 7ml/day of calcium solution.

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You are dosing 7 mL a day of calcium, so are adding about 7.8 ppm of calcium a day.

The link above gives the Part C mixing instructions:

Part C: Amount needed for 1 US gallon = 91 grams or 4 scoops

Then we need to decide how much to dose. The link says it is designed for equal parts dosing with its other parts, so we just need to determine how much of the calcium part of Balling is 7.8 ppm.

from the link:

"The addition of 1 fl.oz./30 ml of each solution will raise the calcium level of 10 US-gal./35 l by approx. 15 ppm and the alkalinity by 2.2 °dH."


30 mL per 35 liters tank water adds 15 ppm calcium.

So you'd be adding 30 mL * 7.8/15 = 15.6 mL of the part C a day (per 35 L) to be equal parts dosed to the equivalent of their calcium part.

That gives a final total of 200/35 x 15.6 = 89 mL a day.

 

[paranoid]

Thanks again Randy!

Don’t mind can I confirm?

1. As my tank is 200L so for calcium I always tot my daily consumption is around 3.9 ppm only as the solution is supposed to raise 10 ppm for every 9ml per 100L?

2. For TM Part C, is the dosage better to peg to calcium consumption or DKH consumption?

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I am confused about what BRS is proposing here. They talk about mixing a separate Mg part using Magnesium chloride and Magnesium Sulfate, but isn't the magnesium covered off in the Part C? TM mentions it contains Mg and K.

I don't see the point of having a separate Mg part for daily dosing.

Dennis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks again Randy!

Don’t mind can I confirm?

1. As my tank is 200L so for calcium I always tot my daily consumption is around 3.9 ppm only as the solution is supposed to raise 10 ppm for every 9ml per 100L?

2. For TM Part C, is the dosage better to peg to calcium consumption or DKH consumption?

Oops, you are right, I did not adjust for your tank volume of 200 L. I used the 100 L from the manufacturer directions.

Thus, dose half as much of Part C: 45 mL.

`

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am confused about what BRS is proposing here. They talk about mixing a separate Mg part using Magnesium chloride and Magnesium Sulfate, but isn't the magnesium covered off in the Part C? TM mentions it contains Mg and K.

I don't see the point of having a separate Mg part for daily dosing.

Dennis

The MgCl2 and MgSO4 is my DIY recipe.

The Part C Balling is a commercial and more complete version of it. More expensive but better.

Do not use both.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

2. For TM Part C, is the dosage better to peg to calcium consumption or DKH consumption?

Neither is "better" than the other, but I'd use calcium.

Note that the product you are using is not designed for 1:1 dosing, so do not expect it to be so.

Balanced dosing is 18-20 ppm calcium for each 2.8 dKH of alk.

That means

2.8 dKH takes 2.8 x 33.3 mL = 93 mL in 100 L
(33.3ml of stock solution added to 100 L of saltwater will raise alkalinity levels by approximately 1 dKH.)

18 ppm calcium takes 18/10 x 9 mL = 16.2 mL
20 ppm calcium takes 20/10 x 9 mL = 18 mL
(9 ml of stock solution added to 100 L of saltwater will raise Calcium levels by approximately 10 PPM)

Thus, balanced dosing with this additive takes far more alk supplement (~ 5.2 to 5.7 x).

You also experience more alk dosing (4.7x) which seems close to me.

We could repeat the Balling Part C calculations with it, but I wouldn't bother since the answer will be quite similar.

 

[Billldg]

Bear in mind that BRS folks are not chemists and they sometimes simplify things to the point of misleading readers.

The use of a balanced two part, such as ESV-B-ionic has zero issues with ionic imbalance over time. That is how it is designed. There is no need to do (if you do not want) or to change how you do water changes when using a product like it.

IF you choose to use a DIY two part that consists of just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate or bicarbonate (I do not recommend this), then there is a well known issue that sodium and chloride accumulate, and if you maintain salinity, that tends to push down other ions such as sulfate or potassium.

My DIY two part (when using my third part as specified) partly eliminates this concern since it keeps sulfate and magnesium at proper levels. The original recipe also maintained potassium via its presence in the calcium chloride, but purer versions of the calcium chloride may not have enough and potassium may slowly decline. In this case, regular water changes will help maintain things like potassium, but does it do it perfectly? No. Decades ago, Craig Bingman published models of how well normal water changes fix this issue (he was not modelling my DIY with my third part, which reduces the problem as mentioned above):

Simulating the Effect of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Bicarbonate Additions on Reef Systems

Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Biochemistry of Aquaria

Additional Simulations: The Combined Effect Of Calcium Chloride
/Sodium Bicarbonate Additions And Water Exchanges

Aquarium Frontiers Biochemistry of Aquaria

from the last one:

"These simulations show that at low calcification rates and with what many people would consider to be substantial water exchange rates, calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate can be used to meet the necessary calcium carbonate demand in a mixed aquarium containing a few hard corals, some live rock and live sand, without totally wrecking the composition of the water in the tank. The results of the simulations are laid out in graphical format for everyone to observe and to allow them to come to their own conclusions on this issue.
Fundamentally, my opinions on what constitute the optimal methods of maintaining calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria are unchanged. I continue to prefer to use “balanced” calcium and alkalinity solutions, like limewater, calcium carbonate/CO2 reactors, or for smaller systems, the balanced ionic two-part solutions."

If you use just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate or bicarbonate and then also use the Tropic Marin sodium chloride free salt (Part C), then you can basically offset the problem of salinity displacing other ions such as sulfate or potassium when maintain salinity. If you do not do any water changes, or do them infrequently, this would be especially useful.

Please forgive me Randy, trying to figure this out. Are you saying that the Hybrid balling method is good or bad based on using your 2-part recipe? I use BRS 2-part, which is actually your recipe and I also am trying the Hybrid balling method which is why I ask.

Thank you

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Using any quality source of sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide (for alk) and calcium chloride (for calcium) along with Balling Part C is a great way to go to have a method that doe snot disturb ionic balance over time (but does raise salinity, as all two part systems do).

My DIY two part uses an approximation to the Balling Part C that uses Epsom salt (Magnesium Sulfate) and Magnesium chloride (Mg and SO4 are by far the most concentrated ions in Balling Part C). BRS sells the ingredients, but you can also DIY. it is not as good as Balling Part C, but is cheaper (much cheaper for full DIY).

Many folks use just the sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide (for alk) and calcium chloride (for calcium() and only add anything else if they ever need magnesium based on testing. That's the least "optimal" way to go, but it clearly works for many people, and water changes may mitigate the theoretical issues with ions such as potassium.

 

[paranoid]

Got it Randy!

Thanks for crunching all the numbers!

I hope many good things will come to you

You are always so helpful and we are blessed to have you in the reefing community haha

 

[rtparty]

I am confused about what BRS is proposing here. They talk about mixing a separate Mg part using Magnesium chloride and Magnesium Sulfate, but isn't the magnesium covered off in the Part C? TM mentions it contains Mg and K.

I don't see the point of having a separate Mg part for daily dosing.

Dennis

IIRC, Lou at TM has said there usually isn't enough magnesium in the Part C to use it to bring levels up. This is why BRS has the magnesium supplement as well. You use a stand alone Mg additive to get your numbers in line, then part C should help you maintain it. Not always though. Depends on your system and how much it consumes