Bryopsis Cure: My Battle With Bryopsis Using Fluconazole

[Jose Mayo]

Zooxanthelae are dinoflagellates and, as such, have in their structure, in greater abundance, the lipids dinosterol and gorgosterol, the latter predominant when the zooxanthelae are endosymbionts. Although they present in their structure, in smaller amount, other lipid, besides the dinosterol and gorgosterol, zooxanthelae do not present, in its structure, the lipid ergosterol. On the other hand, animals in general, from the protozoan to the superior animals, also do not present in the cellular membranes the structural lipid ergosterol; its main lipid is cholesterol.

Fluconazole is a specific inhibitor of the enzyme 14α-Demethylase (CYP51), whose action performs conversion of lanosterol to ergosterol, structural lipid of fungi and some algae. This enzyme, 14α-Demethylase (CYP51), is not part of the synthesis pathway of dinosterol, gorgosterol or cholesterol and does not affect its production.

Based on this, and because zooxanthelae are structurally similar in all colonized invertebrates (SPS, LPS, Gorgonias, Anemones, Tridacnas, etc ...), there is no expected adverse effect of Fluconazole on zooxanthelae or their hosts, until proven otherwise.

Best regards

 

[NCreefguy]

Let me understand correctly... you mean to tell me you have done no water changes for months to a year in predominantly SPS systems? may I ask what method of bio-load export you are using on these tanks?

Yes we are running several SPS systems in our shop without water changes. We have two higher nutrient systems and 3-4 that we consider "normal" range and one low nutrient tank. Our main export is skimming.We are carbon dosing in two systems but only because we're working on some different things on the side.This has been done for years by many people and is nothing new.Google search Reef tanks with no water changes and you'll find plenty of info on it.

also, how can anyone agree with such a definitive statement that there is a contaminant in the medication??? No one knows if there is a contaminant or not and no definitive study has been made to say that flucon medication is 100% safe in reef. This is why in my first post here I stated that i can not be sure if it was the medication myself... but you can?

My post said I agree "that you MAY have had some kind of contaminate in your capsules or something else went wrong for that much loss in your system." I didn't pinpoint any one thing and tell you that was your problem because I'm not sure what went wrong in your tank.I can only tell you that I (along with some of the Vendors here at R2R) are using Fluconazole on some large scale systems and aren't seeing the issues that you had. Hopefully whatever it is doesn't continue and I hope you don't lose any more corals.

 

[brandon429]

Something to consider here

As our peroxide threads developed over the years we saw specific trends in threads where lowering light intensity, something like we'd do as a re-ramp up for getting new LED's or new halides, was required to offset sps challenges when dosing peroxide into the water vs spot treatments.

Photosynthesis is always trying to pump out oxygen from the biosystem as it's a poison in that level of concentration in the cell, free radical destructor if a backup occurs...and we guessed this machinery being pushed at current limits + the addition of strong oxidizer was too much and by fact dropping former light intensity stopped our bleaching challenges that's really something to try here because it's unimpactful and reefs get cloudy days at times.

Another peroxide thread takeaway: someone here needs to experiment with making an emulsion paste of fluc and baking soda and water, where you smear it on a bush underwater and target kill it using a concentration well under you guys' known safe dosing levels. Peroxide technique and fluc should be friends and try some similar ideas while tuning is underway.


Anecdotally we found patterns of high alk, high light tanks being the worst behaved while under dosing stress with peroxide and though lowering alk during a treatment run is riskier with sps those two actions helped stop our bleaching challenges

 

[coralcruze]

Yes we are running several SPS systems in our shop without water changes. We have two higher nutrient systems and 3-4 that we consider "normal" range and one low nutrient tank. Our main export is skimming.We are carbon dosing in two systems but only because we're working on some different things on the side.This has been done for years by many people and is nothing new.Google search Reef tanks with no water changes and you'll find plenty of info on it.





My post said I agree "that you MAY have had some kind of contaminate in your capsules or something else went wrong for that much loss in your system." I didn't pinpoint any one thing and tell you that was your problem because I'm not sure what went wrong in your tank.I can only tell you that I (along with some of the Vendors here at R2R) are using Fluconazole on some large scale systems and aren't seeing the issues that you had. Hopefully whatever it is doesn't continue and I hope you don't lose any more corals.

So if we both agree there "May" be the possability that there was some sort of contaminant... a bit unlikely but sure could be a "possability".

Do we also both agree that there "May" be the possability that the Flucon itself caused the bleaching? Or do you have difinitive proof that flucon can not cause bleaching in SPS?

 

[NCreefguy]

So if we both agree there "May" be the possability that there was some sort of contaminant... a bit unlikely but sure could be a "possability".

Do we also both agree that there "May" be the possability that the Flucon itself caused the bleaching? Or do you have difinitive proof that flucon can not cause bleaching in SPS?

Well according to Mr Mayo zooxanthellae are not effected in that way by Fluconazole. You might have missed his post. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/b...sing-fluconazole.285096/page-233#post-4344692

 

[NCreefguy]

@coralcruze Do you happen to have any corals touching?(I was trying to see from your pics but couldn't tell) I was wondering if maybe you had some coral chemical warfare going on.

 

[coralcruze]

Well according to Mr Mayo zooxanthellae are not effected in that way by Fluconazole. You might have missed his post. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/b...sing-fluconazole.285096/page-233#post-4344692

No i did not miss that post. i dont know where mr. Mayo gets this info. Or weather it is substantiated through actual scientific proof is the reason i didnt respond. without substantiated proof what anyone sais here is notthing but opinion. But then i asked you a question which you avoided response and i have responded to all of your comments and you avoid mine.

@coralcruze Do you happen to have any corals touching?(I was trying to see from your pics but couldn't tell) I was wondering if maybe you had some coral chemical warfare going on.

No corals touching because i prune when needed. the only chemical warfare> IS < the fluconozole that i added to the tank at the moment. When i get home i will take a picture and post the first colony that died since starting the flucono...

 

[Maggie321]

I just got done with a 16 day treatment of 20mg per gallon and I couldn't be happier. I added the shells when I did my first 10% wc yesterday. I have a couple tiny spots I am going to watch under my green monti. Overall my whole system handled fabulously. I have a HOB skimmer that I set to skim only the worst of the worst. I pulled about 1 cup of black skimmate 2x during treatment. I do not run a fuge on this system. It was interesting that I had a spike in bristle worm population about 5 to 7 days in. I wonder if they enjoyed the decaying bryopsis.

 

[NCreefguy]

I just got done with a 16 day treatment of 20mg per gallon and I couldn't be happier. I added the shells when I did my first 10% wc yesterday. I have a couple tiny spots I am going to watch under my green monti. Overall my whole system handled fabulously. I have a HOB skimmer that I set to skim only the worst of the worst. I pulled about 1 cup of black skimmate 2x during treatment. I do not run a fuge on this system. It was interesting that I had a spike in bristle worm population about 5 to 7 days in. I wonder if they enjoyed the decaying bryopsis.

Tank looks great Maggie!!

 

[NCreefguy]

But then i asked you a question which you avoided response and i have responded to all of your comments and you avoid mine.

I haven't avoided anything so lets not get things twisted here. I'll look back to see where I missed your question and respond.

I answered your questions about no water changes in my system and questioning agreeing with JM and your question about bleaching from Flucon...What am I missing?

 

[Jose Mayo]

No i did not miss that post. i dont know where mr. Mayo gets this info. Or weather it is substantiated through actual scientific proof is the reason i didnt respond. without substantiated proof what anyone sais here is notthing but opinion. But then i asked you a question which you avoided response and i have responded to all of your comments and you avoid mine.

No, I'm not a scientist. I am just a human doctor and also an aquarist, like you, and am the first person to have the effect of Fluconazole on difficult algae (Bryopsis and Derbesia), when treating a fish attacked by fungi in my own aquarium ... It was the year of 2013 and since then I have used and monitored the effects of the uses of Fluconazole in many and many aquariums, in many and many configurations, and there has NEVER been a side effect report similar to what you describe in all those years.

And yes, based on my training as a doctor, I sought a lot of academic information to try to understand the facts I was observing (of the effect of Fluconazole on algae) before reporting them. Today, I may be the person who has the longest history on the planet of observing these facts.

Without wishing to enter into discussion, because I do not like to discuss when I have gained nothing, the intention to oppose your account has no other reason than to warn you to look the other way ... while you intend, by mere exercise of will, that the Fluconazole is the "culprit" of what happened, your corals may be dying for many other causes that you may not have noticed by not looking.

With no other spirit than to help,

Best regards

 

[Rostratum]

As one more member of R2R I personally want thank again Dr. Jose Mayo, NCreefguy and many more members for his contributions and very valuable help.
Very few invests so much time investigating to get a solution that doesn't exist yet and then share it with others to help without trying to gain something for themselves.
We are all Reef Keepers for many reasons but mainly for the Fun.
Everybody has to understand that even when it has been used and proven efective in hundreds of systems, using Fluconazole for the treatment of Bryopsis has its risks and no one in R2R is responsible for the results obtained during or after the treatment.
We all are using it at our own risk.
In many cases a bad Result could be the result of many other factors not related directly with Fluconazole.
I beg to everyone to keep sharing their findings so this treatment can be perfected more and more.
Also be nice the other members, specially because they are trying to help everyone else just for the satisfaction of helping others without retribution.
Thank you all again and sorry for using the forum just to thank all the members that deserve it.

 

[NCreefguy]

As one more member of R2R I personally want thank again Dr. Jose Mayo, NCreefguy and many more members for his contributions and very valuable help.
Very few invests so much time investigating to get a solution that doesn't exist yet and then share it with others to help without trying to gain something for themselves.
We are all Reef Keepers for many reasons but mainly for the Fun.
Everybody has to understand that even when it has been used and proven efective in hundreds of systems, using Fluconazole for the treatment of Bryopsis has its risks and no one in R2R is responsible for the results obtained during or after the treatment.
We all are using it at our own risk.
In many cases a bad Result could be the result of many other factors not related directly with Fluconazole.
I beg to everyone to keep sharing their findings so this treatment can be perfected more and more.
Also be nice the other members, specially because they are trying to help everyone else just for the satisfaction of helping others without retribution.
Thank you all again and sorry for using the forum just to thank all the members that deserve it.

We definitely can't thank @Jose Mayo enough for his work and findings on this treatment. There would still be so many tanks being taken down from Bryopsis if not for him.
I agree there are sooo many different factors involved when dealing with things in our hobby.

 

[NCreefguy]

People have had tanks crash before out of nowhere without making changes to anything.So how could this happen with no changes? Too many factors to tell.I've changed salt (more than once)in the past and even with the same parameters lost some corals. Was it the new salt that caused it? I mean tons of other people were using this salt and not seeing coral death.Well it was the only thing that I changed at the time but can I prove that's why they died? I've changed salt before and didn't lose any corals as well so what could it be? Too many things to factor in to tell.
I used Vibrant in my tank over a year ago and burnt the tips of my corals. Was it something in Vibrant itself that burnt the tips? Did Vibrant cause it? Well Vibrant bottomed out my nitrates too quickly and without lowering my lighting the tips were burnt. Was this Vibrants fault or mine for not monitoring nutrients closely enough. (I blame Vibrant ) Just kidding @UWC I had a huge outbreak of Dinos after that, could it have been from something in Vibrant or was it maybe because my system was now out of balance from the zeroed no3 and high po4?(more than likely the reason) Can I prove that? No, once again there are just too many things to factor in.

 

[Jose Mayo]

We definitely can't thank @Jose Mayo enough for his work and findings on this treatment. There would still be so many tanks being taken down from Bryopsis if not for him.
I agree there are sooo many different factors involved when dealing with things in our hobby.

I just have to thank you, not only for the welcome and the progress you have made in the last year, to divulge the method and to contribute to the establishment of an effective protocol in the control of these difficult algae. There is certainly much to be done, and discovered, to make treatment more effective and safe, but it is in good hands now, everything will come in time.

I am sincerely curious (and expectant) about the results of the maintenance dosing experiment, which you seem to be developing. I had not thought of that possibility. It can be very effective in breaking the chain of transmissibility of these algae from the tanks of supply stores.

I await the results.

Best regards

 

[NCreefguy]

I just have to thank you, not only for the welcome and the progress you have made in the last year, to divulge the method and to contribute to the establishment of an effective protocol in the control of these difficult algae. There is certainly much to be done, and discovered, to make treatment more effective and safe, but it is in good hands now, everything will come in time.

I am sincerely curious (and expectant) about the results of the maintenance dosing experiment, which you seem to be developing. I had not thought of that possibility. It can be very effective in breaking the chain of transmissibility of these algae from the tanks of supply stores.

I await the results.

Best regards

There is a group of us that have been trying several different dosages as a maintenance dose for close to a year now. One of them is a Vendor that wholesales thousands of corals yearly and has been thrilled with using Fluconazole. I'll make some posts about it when we've compiled more data.

 

[coralcruze]

I haven't avoided anything so lets not get things twisted here. I'll look back to see where I missed your question and respond.

I answered your questions about no water changes in my system and questioning agreeing with JM and your question about bleaching from Flucon...What am I missing?

My question that you avoided... "Do we also both agree that there "May" be the possibility that the Flucon itself caused the bleaching? Or do you have definitive proof what caused the bleaching?"
You sent me a link to Mayos opinion instead.

I don't believe anyone here can or did offer definitive proof yet. Just because I may be an Architect specializing in the design/construction does not mean an engineer of buildings is an expert in the same. Same goes for a human doctor/Marine Biologist. Having said that, I appreciate what Mayo has posted but its only his opinion or theory not proof, interesting theory it is though. However, at the end of the day, there is no substantial proof one way or the other and I knew that going in and not blaming anyone or anything at this point. Just reporting the facts on the ground. Please don't shoot down the messenger just because I am sharing some negative results. I have NEVER had a bleaching event until dosing Flucon. I figured we can try and learn something from this but when you and Mayo automatically assume and shout >>>contaminant<<< rather than the med. itself or a mechanism we don't understand. I have to question the motives here.

There is no one else in this elephants room that wants this to work more than me. However, my results here cant be ignored or written off as a "Contaminant" . BTW I don't think others reading and seeing the pics are. I see from a few peoples comments that this apparently happened to others as well to some extent or another. Time will tell if more of the colonies actually die. However, due to the super stable system that I have set up, i am confident that things will turn around for most of the bleached corals and they will not die. My red dragon died but it does appear that since i started skimming and water changes as well as GFO that things are stabilizing.

The part that bothers me a little aside from getting between a love triangle between you an Mayo, lol (meant to be funny) is that both of you are speaking about this med as if its 100% impossible for the med. itself cause bleaching in SPS. Which to me, without proof to substantiate raises a brow. Fact is NO ONE really knows what happened? It could have been the SPS devil that came down and spiked the medicine bowl in order to disguise his sinister plan, lol. NO ONE KNOWS... that's the point weather you want to admit it or not.

 

[gfox]

There is a group of us that have been trying several different dosages as a maintenance dose for close to a year now. One of them is a Vendor that wholesales thousands of corals yearly and has been thrilled with using Fluconazole. I'll make some posts about it when we've compiled more data.

What type of dosage are you trying?

 

[coralcruze]

This is a picture of my red dragon colony i grew out of a 1" twig... its the result after dosing Flucon. Its now sitting in my frag tang because i am not 100% certain its completely dead. I still see slight red skin and if even a 1/4" piece survives I will be able to grow it into a colony in no time as this one is a fairly fast grower for me.

 

[NCreefguy]

My question that you avoided... "Do we also both agree that there "May" be the possibility that the Flucon itself caused the bleaching? Or do you have definitive proof what caused the bleaching?"
You sent me a link to Mayos opinion instead.

I answered your question by telling you that according to JM,Fluconazole doesn't effect zooxanthellae that way(bleaching corals). That IS answering your question and providing a link. How is this avoiding your question? I feel like I'm on Candid Camera or something. Am I on TV? Hello mom can you see me?