Calcium & Alkalinity Low. What's next?

Salt1972 · Dec 2, 2017

Hey Guys - I'm new-ish. My daughter and I ran a 55g mixed reef for about 4.5 years before upgrading to a 125g system at the beginning of September. We checked / chased nitrates & phosphates on the 55, but never even checked other parameters.

We're a bit more serious about our 125. Today, we checked all parameters:

Temp: 78.0
Salinity: 1.025
pH: --
Calcium: 300
Kh: 7
Nitrate: 10
Phosphate: .25
Mag: 1400

I'd been reading lately and planning on starting Kalk in our ATO. With the low Calcium and Alkalinity today, I thought now would be a good time. Our LFS recommended Red Sea Calcium & Alkalinity instead- saying we'd have better independent control to bring the parameters back in spec and maintain them.

Your thoughts on 2 Part vs. Kalk? (We're enthusiasts, but not junkies.)

125g Display with 2 skimmers & drip filtration -- Reef Crystals -- Deep crushed coral bed -- 200+lbs Live Rock -- Media Reactor running - nitrate media, PhosBan, and a small pouch of Purigen. We've plumbed a refugium into the system, but we do not yet have a grow light or chaeto.

If you guys recommend the 2 part, is there a spreadsheet calc I can use for dosing amounts? Should I do a 30g water change (to bring Nitrates down) prior to dosing?

Thanks in advance - Matt

saltyfilmfolks · Dec 2, 2017

I would look at wc first In the short term , Get a low alk salt to avoid alk spikes , and get the alk up about to about 8. Then switch to a higher alk salt for maintence and wc . RC or IO is fine For that.

One you get the alk up a bit with a few larger wc , then test alk to find your consumption and depletion rate. I'd the rate is fairly low, kalk in the ato and wc is fine IMO

If it's demand is med/ high , I'd look at an auto doser and buying a two part in bulk.
Like esv or the diy two part from BRS. I'm not familiar with the Red Sea.
(So the lfs was kind of right). But I'd start with the low alk wc first for several reasons.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 2, 2017

Don't use limewater (kalkwasser) for this correction because it cant work.

how long has this tank been up? I'm trying to assess the likelihood of the calcium actually being that low.

Ever dose a buffer and what salt mix?

Use calcium chloride or the calcium part only of a two part to bring the calcium to about 420 ppm (assuming you are convinced the value is accurate).
The you can use either a two part in equal parts to maintain calcium and alkalinity, or limewater. both work well.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 2, 2017

This calculator shows how much calcium additive you will need:

Reef Chemistry Calculator
http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html

Salt1972 · Dec 2, 2017

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Don't use limewater (kalkwasser) for this correction because it cant work.

how long has this tank been up? I'm trying to assess the likelihood of the calcium actually being that low.

Ever dose a buffer and what salt mix?

Use calcium chloride or the calcium part only of a two part to bring the calcium to about 420 ppm (assuming you are convinced the value is accurate).
The you can use either a two part in equal parts to maintain calcium and alkalinity, or limewater. both work well.

Tank has been up since early September. Reef Crystals salt. 30g water change every 2 weeks. No buffer other than the crushed coral aragonite sand bed.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 3, 2017

What is the salinity? At 35 ppt (sg = 1.0264 or so), I can't see how your calcium can get that low and retain the alkalinity it does. But if the salinity is low it could.

That said, it is not a problem for calcium to be high, so even if it really is 360 ppm, raising it by 120 ppm is an OK way to go.

Salt1972 · Dec 3, 2017

OK... I spent some time last night reading about 2 part and watching BRS videos about it. Everything seemed to make so much sense. I decided to start with a simple water change and re-check parameters to see what I still needed to correct. I changed 30g (of 125) with Reef Crystals. Salinity is 1.026 BTW.

After the water change, I took a water sample to a different LFS (the one from yesterday isn't open on Sunday). Now I'm frustrated. They ran their tests twice (Red Sea) and came up with radically different results.

Salinity - 1.026
Nitrates - 10 - I expected the water change to knock this down a point or 2...
Phosphates - 0 - these were .25 per the test yesterday?
Calcium - 540 - these were 300 per yesterday test? I've never dosed anything in the history of this tank. Water changes only. How could it possibly be this high using only Reef Crystals?
Alkalinity - 5 - How could this drop 2 Kh from yesterday AFTER a 30g water change?
Magnesium - 1060 - These reported 1400 yesterday. How could they drop 340 points after a water change?

Are these discrepancies common or characteristic of the hobby grade tests? How could anyone possibly steer / dose their tank based on errors that range from 50% below to 50% over targets? What am I missing?

As it stands, I've done nothing to my tank except for the water change. We have large Duncan and Frogspawn colonies (canteloupe sized each) and then smallish frags of Green Star Polyp, Red Setosa, Neon Torch, & Rainbow Palythoa corals. 1 RBTA, 11 Green Chromis, 2 Ocellaris Clowns, 1 Yellow Watchman Goby, 1 Tiger Pistol Shrimp, 3 Peppermint Shrimp, 1 Fire Shrimp, 2 Emerald Crabs, 1 Sally Lightfoot Crab, and countless hermits, ceriths, snails, etc.

I like the idea of the 2 part dosing, but accurate testing seems critical. My bet is that if you get one parameter significantly out of whack (above or below target), it would adversely affect others very quickly.

What does a Triton test cost? I wonder if I'd be better off doing that monthly?

We're trying to learn and appreciate your help! Thanks,

Matt

truepercs · Dec 3, 2017

Probably should start by buying test kits and get familiar with testing your own water. After testing a while you will have a good understanding of what is happening in your tank.

Alk
Calc
Mag

I personally try to test alk every day. I test all three along with nitrates and phosphates once a week.

You could test alk each day, and you may find that your system is not using much. If it drops you may want to do a water change and then test all three to understand how the wc affects the readings. At that point you may have a little data to help determine your direction?

I strongly suggest testing your own water if you want to up your game.
Salifert test kits would be a good start.

You need to have an understanding of your water conditions and what is being used.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 4, 2017

Salt1972 said:
OK... I spent some time last night reading about 2 part and watching BRS videos about it. Everything seemed to make so much sense. I decided to start with a simple water change and re-check parameters to see what I still needed to correct. I changed 30g (of 125) with Reef Crystals. Salinity is 1.026 BTW.

After the water change, I took a water sample to a different LFS (the one from yesterday isn't open on Sunday). Now I'm frustrated. They ran their tests twice (Red Sea) and came up with radically different results.

Salinity - 1.026
Nitrates - 10 - I expected the water change to knock this down a point or 2...
Phosphates - 0 - these were .25 per the test yesterday?
Calcium - 540 - these were 300 per yesterday test? I've never dosed anything in the history of this tank. Water changes only. How could it possibly be this high using only Reef Crystals?
Alkalinity - 5 - How could this drop 2 Kh from yesterday AFTER a 30g water change?
Magnesium - 1060 - These reported 1400 yesterday. How could they drop 340 points after a water change?

The magnesium did not change. Faulty magnesium testing is very common and if I were you, I wouldn't even test it in a new tank. It is almost exactly what comes in the Reef Crystals (or any salt mix, really), and that is plenty. The Red Sea kit often gives results different than other kits.

The calcium also didn't change, and is at least as likely at 550 ppm as it would be to be 300 ppm. It cannot drop on its own. it must drop in concert with alkalinity drops, and you didn't have those.

Most likely, calcium is also fine. If alk hasn't dropped, then it too reflects what came with the salt mix.

Here's what I'd do:

1. Use the two part in equal parts to maintain alkalinity at your target level. That will add an appropriate amount of calcium, and also magnesium when you add it based on the directions rather than testing. Don't even bother measuring magnesium. Just follow the dosing directions based on the alk dosed.

2. Right away, get your own alk testing kit so you can dose as above. Get Salifert or a Hanna checker, or DIY with a standard acid and a pH meter, although some others are also OK.

3. Eventually get yourself a good calcium kit and see if you need to make slight changes to the dosing amounts of the calcium part.

Salt1972 · Dec 10, 2017

Hanna Alk, Ca, & ULR Phosphorus ordered. Thank you for your help.

Salt1972 · Dec 26, 2017

Hey Guys - I've learned how to use (hopefully accurately) the new tests.

Hanna ULR Phosphorus
Hanna Alkalinity
Hanna Ca
NYOS Nitrate
NYOS Magnesium

I'm getting consistent results that make sense. Over the last week, I've used Red Sea Foundation Alkalinity & Calcium to bring levels up to Ca - 430ppm and Alkalinity to 10.3. Today, I mixed 1 tsp per gallon of Kalk into our ATO. I'll monitor Alk & Ca this week to see if we're maintaining and adjust the mix accordingly.

Here are my questions:

1. I do not have a Ph test. I understand that Kalk can have quite an impact on Ph. Should I be monitoring? If so, what test do you recommend?

2. Nutrient Export. Currently, Nitrates are 12-15ppm and Phosphates are .13ppm. We recently started a small refugium (8g) with Chaeto and a Kessil H80. The chaeto was not thriving after 2-3 weeks so I slowly reduced / eliminated our PhosGuard reactor. We've been running with no PhosGuard for about a week. The chaeto is green and dense, but does not seem to be growing. The phosphates have increased. Do we wait out the chaeto and monitor nutrient levels or take the refugium offline in favor of an algae turf scrubber?

Thanks in advance!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 27, 2017

Assuming you are adding the limewater adequately slowly, there's no real need to monitor the pH for that reason. I will not likely get too high.

I'm not sure why the chaeto isn't growing, but I'd give it a bit longer.

Salt1972 · Dec 28, 2017

We're having trouble maintaining alkalinity.

On 12/23 Alk was 6.5 dKh and we wanted to start Kalk soon. Knowing we needed to balance levels before we started kalk, we dosed 70ml Red Sea Foundation B Alkalinity on 12/23, 24, & 25 and reached 9.8dKh. On 12/26, we dosed 60mL of Red Sea Alk to reach 10.1dKh. We started Kalk (1tsp/gal).

Yesterday - Alk =9.4dKh
Today Alk = 7.3dKh

Our tank doesn't appear to have a heavy load of Alk consumers - we have a large colony of Duncan and Frogspawn and then some small frags. There is Coraline algae, but not tons.

What would be consuming more than 2dKh/day of Alk?

Ca is 592. Mag is 1410. Salinity 1.0265. Temp 77.6.

I'm on my way to purchase more Alkalinity to try to balance with Ca. At this rate, we'd have $20/wk in Alk supplements.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 28, 2017

Salt1972 said:
We're having trouble maintaining alkalinity.

On 12/23 Alk was 6.5 dKh and we wanted to start Kalk soon. Knowing we needed to balance levels before we started kalk, we dosed 70ml Red Sea Foundation B Alkalinity on 12/23, 24, & 25 and reached 9.8dKh. On 12/26, we dosed 60mL of Red Sea Alk to reach 10.1dKh. We started Kalk (1tsp/gal).

Yesterday - Alk =9.4dKh
Today Alk = 7.3dKh

Our tank doesn't appear to have a heavy load of Alk consumers - we have a large colony of Duncan and Frogspawn and then some small frags. There is Coraline algae, but not tons.

What would be consuming more than 2dKh/day of Alk?

Ca is 592. Mag is 1410. Salinity 1.0265. Temp 77.6.

I'm on my way to purchase more Alkalinity to try to balance with Ca. At this rate, we'd have $20/wk in Alk supplements.

Even folks with just soft corals can see a 2 dKH drop per day if coralline growth is good, but you may also have substantial abiotic precipitation (which is more common than most people assume).

Salt1972 · Dec 28, 2017

Thank you for your continued help Randy. I dosed Red Sea Foundation Alkalinity and will monitor daily until I can get a handle on the consumption and supplement by Kalk and dose.

FWIW- My daughter and I ran a 55g mixed reef for 4.5 years before upgrading to the 125g system in Sept. We never considered or even knew anything about Ca, Alk, or Mag... That might have been easier!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 28, 2017

Salt1972 said:
Thank you for your continued help Randy. I dosed Red Sea Foundation Alkalinity and will monitor daily until I can get a handle on the consumption and supplement by Kalk and dose.

FWIW- My daughter and I ran a 55g mixed reef for 4.5 years before upgrading to the 125g system in Sept. We never considered or even knew anything about Ca, Alk, or Mag... That might have been easier!

Knowing more doesn't always make things easier. It can just mean you are worrying more since you know what to worry about.

truepercs · Dec 28, 2017

Salt1972 said:
Hey Guys - I've learned how to use (hopefully accurately) the new tests.

Hanna ULR Phosphorus
Hanna Alkalinity
Hanna Ca
NYOS Nitrate
NYOS Magnesium

I'm getting consistent results that make sense. Over the last week, I've used Red Sea Foundation Alkalinity & Calcium to bring levels up to Ca - 430ppm and Alkalinity to 10.3. Today, I mixed 1 tsp per gallon of Kalk into our ATO. I'll monitor Alk & Ca this week to see if we're maintaining and adjust the mix accordingly.

You are on your way...

truepercs · Dec 28, 2017

Something all of us have to do... learn to test for what you want
Learn how to get the water testing with the results you want.
Then... learn how to keep it there, consistently.

"Knowing more doesn't always make things easier. It can just mean you are worrying more since you know what to worry about."

Randy... This needs to be added to famous quotes or at least in a "quote of the day" mailing.
Googled it... it's original