Calcium Reactor and balling light trace elements?

Lousybreed · Nov 5, 2018

Hi. I have a 500 gallon system that has been running for 4 months. I have my parameters dialed in for the big 3. I recently began dosing some trace elements. I am using the fauna Marin “balling light” trace elements. There are three bottles. I back calculated from Alk usage that I am using only 20% of the trace elements of what I would be using if I was using the balling method. I plan on getting ICP testing to monitor my levels of trace. Any advice, concerns? I my tanks typically are low in trace elements, I am just hoping to keep levels somewhat close to recommend levels.

Martin Kuhn · Nov 6, 2018

Measuring your Cax reactors outputs
- Alkalinity and
- Volume of the concentrated outflow if the reactor per day,
We can calculate which Ca/Alk Defizit
your reactor doses per day

Knowing this we can backwards calculate/ assume the amount of FM Trace elements that would be required

Lousybreed · Nov 6, 2018

Martin Kuhn said:
Measuring your Cax reactors outputs
- Alkalinity and
- Volume of the concentrated outflow if the reactor per day,
We can calculate which Ca/Alk Defizit
your reactor doses per day

Knowing this we can backwards calculate/ assume the amount of FM Trace elements that would be required

This is awesome!!! I am traveling for work right now, when I get home I will measure both flowrate and alk of the calcium reactor.

Martin Kuhn · Nov 7, 2018

Lousybreed said:
This is awesome!!! I am traveling for work right now, when I get home I will measure both flowrate and alk of the calcium reactor.

i created an Excel-Spreadshead which should do the calculation for you.
It is attached as *.zip as the Forum-SW does not allow *,xlsx Uploads. So you have to it unzip first

enjoy reefing..
Martin

Lousybreed · Nov 7, 2018

Great excel spreadsheet.....I put my data in, 20.41 dKH, 64L/day, 1890L system. The outputs before all additional calculations was Trace 1 and 2 0.427 and Trace 3 1.825ml....this is assuming standard amounts at the concentration as delivered in the bottle......So my question to you is simple, I simply figure out my concentration of each trace in my dosing system (50ml trace 1/2000ml) and then adjust my dosage to deliver the 0.427ml equivelent. So for my example of 50ml/2000ml for trace 1 would be a daily dose of 17.08ml of my dilute solution......

LouieP · Nov 7, 2018

I run a CaRx and I send a sample of water Triton every 3-4 mths and add trace elements based on the test results but I use their trace elements since they give the amount I need to add for corrective dosing & weekly trace elements.

Martin Kuhn · Nov 8, 2018

Lousybreed said:
Great excel spreadsheet.....I put my data in, 20.41 dKH, 64L/day, 1890L system. The outputs before all additional calculations was Trace 1 and 2 0.427 and Trace 3 1.825ml....this is assuming standard amounts at the concentration as delivered in the bottle......So my question to you is simple, I simply figure out my concentration of each trace in my dosing system (50ml trace 1/2000ml) and then adjust my dosage to deliver the 0.427ml equivelent. So for my example of 50ml/2000ml for trace 1 would be a daily dose of 17.08ml of my dilute solution......

If you dillute the, highly concentrated, FM Trace elements you need to dose more by the dilluation factor you are using.
I didn't check your calculations, but this is simple three set.

Also it makes a lot of sense for me to dillute in your situation in order to dose more accurately.
The FM traces are made also to be "dilluted within the Balling liquid solutions" with a can size of 2000ml typically.

Lousybreed · Nov 8, 2018

Martin Kuhn said:
If you dillute the, highly concentrated, FM Trace elements you need to dose more by the dilluation factor you are using.
I didn't check your calculations, but this is simple three set.

Also it makes a lot of sense for me to dillute in your situation in order to dose more accurately.
The FM traces are made also to be "dilluted within the Balling liquid solutions" with a can size of 2000ml typically.

I really appreciate they help. I love the FM products!!

Lousybreed · Nov 8, 2018

LouieP said:
I run a CaRx and I send a sample of water Triton every 3-4 mths and add trace elements based on the test results but I use their trace elements since they give the amount I need to add for corrective dosing & weekly trace elements.

That is my plan too! Just need a starting point. Doing a calcium reactor with the trace elements is about 600% cheaper than doing Triton.

jda · Nov 8, 2018

If you are melting natural media, then there are more elements in it than just the big three. You will not likely need to use anything else. It has strontium, mylob, potassium (says Carib Sea, but disputed by Dr. Holmes-Farley) and all of the other things needed to build a coral skeleton. If you change even a little bit of water, then you should be all set - I know that some people are against changing water and might like to dose, but I change water because it is cheaper than doing ICP tests and buying supplements at about $9 a month for a bag of IO.

LouieP · Nov 8, 2018

with a CaRx and/or with water changes you will still be low on trace elements and dosing is the only way to keep up with demand.

jda · Nov 8, 2018

That does not have to be the case. ...it might be for some, but water changes and CaRx grow coral out of my tank for almost 2 decades. I do not dose anything.

If you melt man-made media, then it can be... since it only has carbonate and calcium in it and not any trace elements.

LouieP · Nov 8, 2018

@jda have you ever sent off a sample for ICP testing?

jda · Nov 8, 2018

Twice. Learned nothing either time with every parameter in line except for high lithium (salt mix). I can grow wall-to-wall acropora in about three years from 1" frags and the color is as good as anybody - this tells me more than an ICP test. I am probably done with it. There is a local place that does IC and ICP with the non-metals and stuff.

For $50-60, I could change 200-300 gallons of water and fix nearly any problem that an ICP test said that there was.

I see ICP testing as a novelty or perhaps as a last-resort for people who just cannot figure out a problem (although this rarely helps them).

Lousybreed · Nov 9, 2018

I think ICP is something for people that love data. I have proven that a CaRx cannot keep up with traces but you are right I might not have to dose as much. There will be some in the coral based media I use in my reactor. It is important to remember that some elements aren’t necessarily incorporated into coral skeleton material.

jda · Nov 9, 2018

I do love data. If I cannot turn it into information or knowledge, then it is worthless to me. Data is just the first step, but a necessary first step.

Let's set aside the fact that nobody is really sure if most of these traces are really necessary - it is easier this way. I don't think that anybody has ever said that CaRx alone can keep up with all traces, but along with routine water changes, it does all that you need. The water change is the dosing regime.

Even the long-term, established methods like DSR do not replenish all of the traces.

Lousybreed · Nov 9, 2018

I think there is an incredible amount of knowledge to be gained from trace data. I think you are correct, we really don’t understand what traces do...if anything. I also get your point of view on water changes with a CaRx IS a winning combo. But why stop there? I just got my ICP results back (like 30 min ago). I do water changes mind you. And most of my traces are low. The major and mids (like K and St) were good. So if we have data that shows a consistent trend, low traces, why wouldn’t we strive to at least keep them maintained at least at NSW levels? In addition I am always seeking continuous improvement in this hobby. So the old adage good enough is good enough doesn’t work for me. We have so much to learn in this hobby. I have been dosing my trace elements for about two weeks. I am noticing slight changes to polyp color, cheato growth rates, and especially the softies. I was at only 10% of recommended iodine levels. I have stated to dose potassium iodide.

jda · Nov 9, 2018

Iodine is tricky. Have you read up on Dr. Holmes-Farley's iodine articles and FULLY understand them? You probably have plenty and they don't test for all kinds of it - this is the most likely scenario if your shrimp molt and survive and you do change some water. There is elemental iodine, which is probably what they test for, that does not do much. There is also Iodate, Iodide, some with some + and some with some -. It can be dangerous if you add too much. Be careful here. This is where I am saying that the "data" says low iodine, but the "information and knowledge" should caution you to look further. You could be raising iodide levels beyond what is good while all the time testing low for something completely different like elemental iodine.

I would at least figure out EXACTLY which kind of I that they tested for. Our local place does ICP for elemental iodine and not iodate. I have no idea what they test for (each is different) and you could be on the money, but worth a check since you dosing a poison into your tank in large doses. Halides are one group that I would not add without acute testing.

Chaeto can easily diminish iron, which might need dosed even if you change water - it is growth limiting in low concentrations with a lot of macros. This is not as dangerous as iodine, so you can probably do this without much testing.

Lousybreed · Nov 9, 2018

I have no idea how many articles Randy has published. I have read the main ones and his belief is that iodine is not a needed element for a reef. ICP testing is looking at elemental analysis. That is the basis of the technology. You can have iodine locked up as many different forms but when it is ran thru the machine they are looking for the iodine “signature” and they measure the intensity of that. All of it gets captured. This is why this form of testing is helpful. How it gets back calculated I don’t know. I guess I will email triton.