Calcium reactor control by Neptune Trident

[Shirak]

What I have found with mine also running 30ml/min it takes a while for the reactor to move all the volume in the reactor to the tank even after the CO2 shuts off or goes to throttling. That can cause a bit of the overshoot IMO. I think if you are maintaining a swing of .2-.3 each day that's pretty good when you consider some of that is just up and down as pH changes from CO2 uptake in the water itself.

 

[Rst]

What I have found with mine also running 30ml/min it takes a while for the reactor to move all the volume in the reactor to the tank even after the CO2 shuts off or goes to throttling. That can cause a bit of the overshoot IMO. I think if you are maintaining a swing of .2-.3 each day that's pretty good when you consider some of that is just up and down as pH changes from CO2 uptake in the water itself.

Thanks Tony I Will try your suggestions.

Just wondering if you would prefer to take any future messages private since I wonder if other members are benefiting from the unique conditions of my tank? Or
we can continue keeping it here.

Ron

 

[Shirak]

Up to you Ron. Yes each tank is unique but I think it might be helpful as the basics still apply to most situations. I think you also have it pretty well dialed in and are doing well with sorting through the control aspects and where to tweak and when. It is very interesting to see how things like adding a bunch of frags changes the dynamics within the tank.

 

[Rst]

Up to you Ron. Yes each tank is unique but I think it might be helpful as the basics still apply to most situations. I think you also have it pretty well dialed in and are doing well with sorting through the control aspects and where to tweak and when. It is very interesting to see how things like adding a bunch of frags changes the dynamics within the tank.

Ok with me as long as you think other members might benefit.

 

[Rst]

Hi Ron,
May take some time to settle down yet. I run 6 tests also and the longer span between tests will give a bit more up and down on the Alk. Looks like it's spiking a bit at late night which you could try upping to 6.5 seconds on the bubble count and changing the on time command to 30 minutes earlier and 18 off instead of 20. That might help keep the low side up towards 9.5 and reduce the light nigh overshoot.

Hi Tony,
Just a update, your apex code works pretty well and keeps the Alkalinity well controlled within about 0.3 dKH. This is obviously quite good, The only slight irritation is that fine turning via this method is that it takes quite a lot of tweeting.

Late last week, I came across this thread from back in Oct 2018 by another member @jda. Here he describes a cookbook approach to tuning a calcium reactor. (See post #14 “calcium reactor cant keep up with alk”). Due to being very curious, I took a quick turnabout and tried it.
The good news is that surprisingly it work’s & it seems simpler. Let you know my further thoughts shortly.

 

[Shirak]

Hi Tony,
Just a update, your apex code works pretty well and keeps the Alkalinity well controlled within about 0.3 dKH. This is obviously quite good, The only slight irritation is that fine turning via this method is that it takes quite a lot of tweeting.

Late last week, I came across this thread from back in Oct 2018 by another member @jda. Here he describes a cookbook approach to tuning a calcium reactor. (See post #14 “calcium reactor cant keep up with alk”). Due to being very curious, I took a quick turnabout and tried it.
The good news is that surprisingly it work’s & it seems simpler. Let you know my further thoughts shortly.

Hi Ron,
Yes @jda knows his stuff with the calcium reactor. I should reread that thread. I am using the modification from @OrionN I think it is, on mine with a small flow restrictor in the CO2 line so tiny little bubbles are sent to the pump with each CDoser click. I will be interested to hear how your daily fluctuations go. I am averaging about a .2 - .25 daily Alk swing. I keep trying to make it flat LOL There is the occasional bump or dip which lately was my Trident getting a bit wonky although I think some days the corals are just ticked at me for something and consumption slows. I also have an AFS going but I feed by hand heavily but not consistently so that my cause some uptick on consumption briefly.

 

[Operator Wrasse]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I was under the impression that the Dos was not suited for continous duty, ie a CaRx?

 

[Shirak]

I haven't read through this entire thread, but I was under the impression that the Dos was not suited for continous duty, ie a CaRx?

Correct it is not. You would need a continuous duty peristaltic pump. Can go with a Kamoer fx stp. I think there may be other brands but many of us use a Masterflex or other Cole Palmer.

 

[Rst]

Hi Ron,
Yes @jda knows his stuff with the calcium reactor. I should reread that thread. I am using the modification from @OrionN I think it is, on mine with a small flow restrictor in the CO2 line so tiny little bubbles are sent to the pump with each CDoser click. I will be interested to hear how your daily fluctuations go. I am averaging about a .2 - .25 daily Alk swing. I keep trying to make it flat LOL There is the occasional bump or dip which lately was my Trident getting a bit wonky although I think some days the corals are just ticked at me for something and consumption slows. I also have an AFS going but I feed by hand heavily but not consistently so that my cause some uptick on consumption briefly.

Hi Tony,
Since my last post, I have been trying out the full manual method as described by @jda. This method means that the Apex is NOT making any changes whatsoever, only using Apex to monitor only the pH of the reagent and the Alkalinity readings every 4 hours. When using this manual method, you set only 2 variables - the bubbles per second and the flow of effluent out of the reactor. The pump used to circulate the water within the reactor is simply running all the time 24hrs/day 7 days per week.

My goal for the control of the dkh of my display tank was 9.5 dkh. It took me a long time to properly set the bubbles rate and my flow rate, but I now believe that it is optimally set(in my setup it's 1 bubble every 10 secs and 24ml/min effluent flow). Below is my graph starting on Dec10th up to today at 6pm. You will note that it wasn't until Dec 12 before I finally had the reactor dialed in. So this graph shows: the pH in the reactor in RED, the Alkatronic dkh readings every 4 hours in blue, and the Trident dkh readings every 6 hours in green:

Note that the Trident readings does not follow the Alkatronic readings since it is approx always reading around 0.2 dkh higher. Also note that when the Alkatronic readings trend either up or down, the Trident doesn't always follow the direction as you would expect. Personally, I trust the Alkatronic reading over the Trident since it is based on a titration. I actually was surprised when the Trident did not follow the direction of the Alkatronic?

Hoping you find this info useful,
Ron

 

[Shirak]

Hi Ron
Interesting data between the Trident and the Alkatronic. Would be nice to know why the Trident is sometimes showing bigger swings and not always in the same direction.
Looks like you have your reactor dialed in nicely with daily uptake. I am still partial to the idea of pushing more alk during the day vs night. I think the simple route you are running now is good too, especially for a tank that is humming along and just needing the occasional tweak as the corals grow. I have a tendency to move corals around and in and out of my tanks which messes with demand LOL.

I was having some odd readings recently where manual tests one after the other were giving significantly different numbers. I took it apart to watch what was going on and noticed the occasional air bubbles in the tube as it was loading A reagent. I think it was sometimes sucking in air even though the bottle was fairly new and the sample tube is in the fluid etc. I pulled the line off the little connector at the lid. I notice the ends of the silicone tubing are a bit flared from the barbed push connector. I suspect the seal between the barbed connector and tubing is not as good as it once was and am looking into getting some replacement tubing to rebuild the unit...

I am running All For Reef on a frag system currently. I am happy with the results but find Alk drops slowly and needs the occasional bump. I have a used Alkatronic and Trident sitting here. My grow out/propagation system which I am building I am thinking of going with AFR monitoring Ca/Mg using the Trident so I can adjust AFR dosage as needed and the Alkatronic to monitor Alk and dose Bicarb as needed..

 

[ReeferBud]

Just came across this great thread. Have been doing something similar, with a few twists, so sharing in case it’s useful others:

1. The Alk Max VO can be eliminated since you can simply add one line of code into the throttle program —> If Alk > [max desired Alk] then OFF

2. Since I have a pretty mature system with very high Alk demand, I noticed significant Alk consumptions between day and night. To try to get “ahead” of that issue, I created a Day and Night profile that will change the CaRx pH range depending on the time of day. I noticed that this smoothed out the Alk spike at night and Alk trough during the day. This can be accomplished by adding two VOs, one for Day and Night, and adding to the CO2 solenoid program.

this is my programming:

[AlkControl]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/060:00/060:00 Then ON
If Alk < 8.19 Then OFF

[CO2_Day]
Fallback OFF
If pHcal < 6.50 Then OFF
If pHcal > 6.70 Then ON
If Time 00:00 to 09:59 Then OFF

[CO2_Night]
Fallback OFF
If pHcal < 6.90 Then OFF
If pHcal > 7.10 Then ON
If Time 10:00 to 23:59 Then OFF

[CaRx_CO2]
Set OFF
Fallback OFF
If Output CO2_Day = ON Then ON
If Output CO2_Night = ON Then ON
If Alk > 8.60 Then OFF
If Output Alk_control = ON Then OFF

I love tinkering with this kind of stuff and I had several iterations and this is what seemed to work best for my system. I don’t think there’s a “one size fits all approach” since there are so many variables in our tanks, so definitely encourage modifying parameters to find what’s best for each system.

The next project I would like to do is to automate or improve upon the effluent flow. I currently have my reactor fed off a manifold and the flow rate is higher than what a typical peristaltic pump like the Kamoer can handle.

does anyone know if a flow restrictor can be put on a CaRx, similar to the ones we use on RO systems?

does anyone know of a programmable peristaltic pump that can be automated with the Apex? I saw a DIY post but that seemed like too much work beyond my skills.

 

[wotis11]

Just came across this great thread. Have been doing something similar, with a few twists, so sharing in case it’s useful others:

1. The Alk Max VO can be eliminated since you can simply add one line of code into the throttle program —> If Alk > [max desired Alk] then OFF

2. Since I have a pretty mature system with very high Alk demand, I noticed significant Alk consumptions between day and night. To try to get “ahead” of that issue, I created a Day and Night profile that will change the CaRx pH range depending on the time of day. I noticed that this smoothed out the Alk spike at night and Alk trough during the day. This can be accomplished by adding two VOs, one for Day and Night, and adding to the CO2 solenoid program.

this is my programming:

[AlkControl]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/060:00/060:00 Then ON
If Alk < 8.19 Then OFF

[CO2_Day]
Fallback OFF
If pHcal < 6.50 Then OFF
If pHcal > 6.70 Then ON
If Time 00:00 to 09:59 Then OFF

[CO2_Night]
Fallback OFF
If pHcal < 6.90 Then OFF
If pHcal > 7.10 Then ON
If Time 10:00 to 23:59 Then OFF

[CaRx_CO2]
Set OFF
Fallback OFF
If Output CO2_Day = ON Then ON
If Output CO2_Night = ON Then ON
If Alk > 8.60 Then OFF
If Output Alk_control = ON Then OFF

I love tinkering with this kind of stuff and I had several iterations and this is what seemed to work best for my system. I don’t think there’s a “one size fits all approach” since there are so many variables in our tanks, so definitely encourage modifying parameters to find what’s best for each system.

The next project I would like to do is to automate or improve upon the effluent flow. I currently have my reactor fed off a manifold and the flow rate is higher than what a typical peristaltic pump like the Kamoer can handle.

does anyone know if a flow restrictor can be put on a CaRx, similar to the ones we use on RO systems?

does anyone know of a programmable peristaltic pump that can be automated with the Apex? I saw a DIY post but that seemed like too much work beyond my skills.

Are you talking about something like these?

 

[ReeferBud]

Are you talking about something like these?

yes, thanks. That’s the same concept of what I was suggesting. I wasn’t aware of these specific flow restrictor so by Avast but their parts are for 50 and 100ml/min, and I’m currently running near 200 ml/min, which would be equivalent to a 75 gal/day restrictor like the ones found on RO systems like the one below. Don’t know if that type of flow restrictor is intended for clean freshwater only or would work with saltwater coming out of a calcium reactor.

Reverse Osmosis Flow Restrictor

Flow restrictors are essential to a properly functioning RO system. Be sure to have the appropriate flow restrictor for the membrane you have. If you decide to change your membrane to a higher or lower GPD membrane, you must also replace the flow restrictor to correspond with the membrane. All...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[trido]

yes, thanks. That’s the same concept of what I was suggesting. I wasn’t aware of these specific flow restrictor so by Avast but their parts are for 50 and 100ml/min, and I’m currently running near 200 ml/min, which would be equivalent to a 75 gal/day restrictor like the ones found on RO systems like the one below. Don’t know if that type of flow restrictor is intended for clean freshwater only or would work with saltwater coming out of a calcium reactor.

Reverse Osmosis Flow Restrictor

Flow restrictors are essential to a properly functioning RO system. Be sure to have the appropriate flow restrictor for the membrane you have. If you decide to change your membrane to a higher or lower GPD membrane, you must also replace the flow restrictor to correspond with the membrane. All...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I would think that an RO flow restrictor would require alot of pressure to work properly. I use a 3/8" line from a manifold to feed my reactor and a 1/4" line out with a standard 1/4" ball valve. Using the larger line in helps create a little pressure and keeps the flow steady. I monitor my flow with a flow meter via Neptune Apex. It stays steady from 1.5GPH to 2.5 GPH for months at a time depending on my needs.

 

[ReeferBud]

I would think that an RO flow restrictor would require alot of pressure to work properly. I use a 3/8" line from a manifold to feed my reactor and a 1/4" line out with a standard 1/4" ball valve. Using the larger line in helps create a little pressure and keeps the flow steady. I monitor my flow with a flow meter via Neptune Apex. It stays steady from 1.5GPH to 2.5 GPH for months at a time depending on my needs.

i thought the apex flow meters were inaccurate below 3gph. Has this worked reliably for you?

 

[wotis11]

i thought the apex flow meters were inaccurate below 3gph. Has this worked reliably for you?

The 1/4” flow sensors are rated for something like 3-12gph but will measure lower or higher

 

[trido]

i thought the apex flow meters were inaccurate below 3gph. Has this worked reliably for you?

Yes, I used to be able to get a steady .75 GPH reading but found that my reactor keeps up with my demands with higher flow ratings and also the Apex cannot send alarms for reading below 1GPH.

 

[trido]

Just came across this great thread. Have been doing something similar, with a few twists, so sharing in case it’s useful others:

1. The Alk Max VO can be eliminated since you can simply add one line of code into the throttle program —> If Alk > [max desired Alk] then OFF
this is my programming:

[AlkControl]
Fallback OFF
Set OFF
OSC 000:00/060:00/060:00 Then ON
If Alk < 8.19 Then OFF

I like it. I'm not real familiar with the OSC commands so this never occurred to me. I'll give it a shot when I have time to monitor my tank a little more closely. I also like your day and night additions. I have grow tanks on the opposite schedule of the display tank and often have higher demand at night. It's usually pretty balanced though, so I don't see much pH or Alk swing throughout the day.