Calling all Centropyge harem owners

[Claus84]

Hi all,

I'm in the early planning stages of a 280G reef (96"x28" footprint) into which I will be adding a harem of dwarf angels and I'd like to gauge other peoples experiences keeping harems of dwarfs. I'll be adding plenty of rockwork in the form of seperate islands to create as much territory as possible.

I currently have a Biota coral beauty and a captive bred flame angel in seperate tanks (55 FOWLR/90Reef) and I will look to add more of whichever species is available captive bred in the UK at the time to form a harem in my upgrade tank.

Has anyone here succesfully kept a harem long term? If so would 3 or 5 fish be better and is there much attrition, do they gang up and eventually kill the weaker individuals as some species do?

Also do harems mix okay with individuals of other dwarf angel species, if I go for a harem of flames I would also plan to keep my coral beauty and possibly add another species or 2 such as a cherub or Eibli.

Thanks in advance

Nick

 

[Trex]

Not sure I would call mine a harem, since they are different species, but I currently have 4 dwarfs in my 75 -- they have been in this tank for just under 2 years now, but I have had them for 4+ years in different tanks at one point or another. They are currently in a 75 with a pair of clowns.

They are a Coral beauty, Flame, Flameback and Venustus. There is some minor chasing from time to time, but never see any fin damage. As for the Venustus, which can be difficult, it was well established before I mixed it. First by itself (( with the clowns )), in a 40 breeder, then in a 210, to which the Flameback was added. Then it was put in the 75 with the other 2, but with a divider down the middle of the tank --- was in the process of having a house built and the tank was at my mother-in-laws, I wasn't always there to watch, so I didn't want to worry about any fighting (( the Flame and Coral Beauty had been in a 65 together for years )). Once the house was finished, I moved them into a divided 65 until the 75 was up and running.

 

[Claus84]

Not sure I would call mine a harem, since they are different species, but I currently have 4 dwarfs in my 75 -- they have been in this tank for just under 2 years now, but I have had them for 4+ years in different tanks at one point or another. They are currently in a 75 with a pair of clowns.

They are a Coral beauty, Flame, Flameback and Venustus. There is some minor chasing from time to time, but never see any fin damage. As for the Venustus, which can be difficult, it was well established before I mixed it. First by itself (( with the clowns )), in a 40 breeder, then in a 210, to which the Flameback was added. Then it was put in the 75 with the other 2, but with a divider down the middle of the tank --- was in the process of having a house built and the tank was at my mother-in-laws, I wasn't always there to watch, so I didn't want to worry about any fighting (( the Flame and Coral Beauty had been in a 65 together for years )). Once the house was finished, I moved them into a divided 65 until the 75 was up and running.

Sounds like an awesome collection, would love a venustus! I tried mixing my larger coral beauty in with my flame in my 90 but unfortunately it didn't work out, I placed it in an acclimation box for a couple of days and the released, during the day they were fine together just the occasional bit of bickering but then about an hour before lights out the coral beauty would go nuts and pen the flame into a small cave! I had to remove the beauty and set up a 55 for it to call home, really hoping they play nice together in the 280!

 

[pcon]

I cannot recommend adding 2 different centropyge individuals and a haram of a third. That is just not smart. Centropyge mated pairs get weird in the presence of an individual centropyge. It interrupts spawning, and can cause aggression inside the mated pair.

As for keeping harems, one specific care needs to go into selecting the species, some centropyge live in large harems of 10+ individuals, other species exclusively form pairs. I don't have my books on me but i think the type examples of those two would be Lemonpeel, and Potters angels respectively. Further information on centropyge preferred social structure is often not know, difficult to find or conflicting.

Harems are hard and often fall apart; I think for the same reasons groups of chromis dwindle to one. The social structure establishes a rigid hierarchy Dominant Male->Dominant Female->Second Female->...-> to the smallest female or juveniles. Going down the chain each individual experiences aggression from all above them in the chain. When spread out over the 10+ square meters of the males range this is greatly diffused; In the confines of a tank, even a 250g, there simply isn't enough room for one of the members to get away from all the others. Other wise it may be why you cant keep wrasses in harems: in aquaria one of the subordinate females turns into a male, resulting in the death of one of the two males. With the difficulties in sexing Pomacanthidaes this can't be ruled out.

Stick with pairs, its safer for the fish, and you are more likely to get the long term results you want.

If you are dead set on a harem, large tank 250g+, small species ie cherubs, large number of individuals 4+, No other similar Pomacanthidaes, and start with all juveniles of about the same size and one large male. You should be experienced successfully pairing centropyge (ie 3+ successful pairs, where you actually see them spawn.) It is essential to be familiar with what can go wrong and the warning signs, such that your are confident in your ability intervene in an attempted pairing before it goes too far south. And most importantly Plan and Research the **** out of it.

 

[Claus84]

Harems are hard and often fall apart; I think for the same reasons groups of chromis dwindle to one. The social structure establishes a rigid hierarchy Dominant Male->Dominant Female->Second Female->...-> to the smallest female or juveniles. Going down the chain each individual experiences aggression from all above them in the chain.

I wondered about that given that behaviour is common in other types of fish, to be honest thats all I need to hear as I don't want to risk losing any. There's so little available info on social structure (online at least anyway) thats why I was keen to get other peoples experiences on the matter. Have you kept different species of pairs/harems?

The only thing I am dead set on is keeping my existing flame angel and coral beauty, based on your advice above I won't try a harem and if I have understood correctly you would not suggest keeping a pair either in the presence of another Centropyge species? If thats the case I will stick to keeping a few individuals of different species.

And most importantly Plan and Research the **** out of it.

I plan to, thats why i'm here and your post has been a big help, thanks. In theory pairing shouldn't be too hard, being captive bred both of my angels were around 1" when I got them, I believe my coral beauty is probably mature now at around 3" (owned since Dec 2016) and to me it looks like my flame is starting to show signs of becoming male, probably around 2.5" (owned since April 2017). If I did add another it would be an immature captive bred individual which I would have to grow on a bit before introducing and do so very carefully, probably in QT. As per the above though i'mnot set on adding a pair/harem if it would result in the severe bullying and death of an individual.

 

[pcon]

Have you kept different species of pairs/harems?

I had a flame angel pair until I lost the female to a pump issue and the male took a liking to gorgonians.

I haven't personally kept a harem for the above reasons but have attempted them in clients tanks.

For clients I have successfully paired, and to me this means observed spawning, and several weeks/months of peaceful cohabitation.
C. loriculus(flame), C. bispinosa(coral beauty), C. bicolor, C. acanthops(african flame back), C. Ferrugata(Rusty), and most recently C. eibli.

Personally I am only interested in keeping pairs of dwarf angels in pairs. Alone they are beautiful and the grazing behavior is neat but not particularly notable otherwise. In a pair it checks their aggression. Their near constant interaction, grazing apart then coming back to check on each-other, circling, chasing each-other back and forth through the tank, along with the beautiful mating dance each evening, is truly unparalleled.
Next im attempting a Paracentropyge pair for my personal tank. I plan on setting up a log of the process as soon as i can get some in. Probably Multibars but Id take Venustus if a good number came avalible, both are kool fish and would be hard to pick. And hey if some affordable peppermints fell in my lap I couldn't complain, LOL.

The only thing I am dead set on is keeping my existing flame angel and coral beauty, based on your advice above I won't try a harem and if I have understood correctly you would not suggest keeping a pair either in the presence of another Centropyge species? If thats the case I will stick to keeping a few individuals of different species.

It is good you know what you want, honestly very rare in this hobby. Doing multiple individuals in a 250 is very doable but has some associated risks. It is always a crapshoot if the new addition will get along with the established ones. General wisdom says don't mix dwarfs but in a 250 you can bend the rules.

Your other option would be paring both the coral beauty and flame you have. If you do this the two should be separated before introducing the potential mates.

 

[Claus84]

For clients I have successfully paired, and to me this means observed spawning, and several weeks/months of peaceful cohabitation.
C. loriculus(flame), C. bispinosa(coral beauty), C. bicolor, C. acanthops(african flame back), C. Ferrugata(Rusty), and most recently C. eibli.

Thats quite a list! I would love a pair of Eibli's, they are my favourite angels. I had a single one in my first FOWLR tank 10 years ago but from what I understand they are one of the less reef-safe species so i'm hesitant to risk one nowadays.

Next im attempting a Paracentropyge pair for my personal tank. I plan on setting up a log of the process as soon as i can get some in. Probably Multibars but Id take Venustus if a good number came avalible, both are kool fish and would be hard to pick. And hey if some affordable peppermints fell in my lap I couldn't complain, LOL.

Well whichever one of those species you go for i'm sure a pair would look amazing, i'll definitely be keeping an eye out for your log!

Your other option would be paring both the coral beauty and flame you have. If you do this the two should be separated before introducing the potential mates.

So if I were to seperate and pair them up in QT tanks could a pair of each species potentially both co-exist in the 280?

Thanks

Nick

 

[pcon]

Thats quite a list! I would love a pair of Eibli's, they are my favourite angels. I had a single one in my first FOWLR tank 10 years ago but from what I understand they are one of the less reef-safe species so i'm hesitant to risk one nowadays.

Thanks! My list of unsuccessful attempts is almost as big. Flames are so easy it pads my ratio

The Eiblis are gorgeous but I just don't trust them with corals. They have never been successfully breed in captivity it was tempting to set up a 55g drum plumbed to my system as a project. Probably an overly ambitious first species to attempt but thats how the coral beauty was first breed.

So if I were to seperate and pair them up in QT tanks could a pair of each species potentially both co-exist in the 280?

I haven't personally tried it but I have seen numerous photos in tanks that sized of 2 pairs of centropyge. So it seems doable. But pairing them in the same tank generally doesn't work, so like you said pair them up in different QT tanks.

 

[Claus84]

The Eiblis are gorgeous but I just don't trust them with corals. They have never been successfully breed in captivity it was tempting to set up a 55g drum plumbed to my system as a project. Probably an overly ambitious first species to attempt but thats how the coral beauty was first breed.

That would be awesome if you could pull it off, and if not I guess you are still left with a pretty pair of fish. I was thinking about getting a Tigerpyge at one point but given the two parent species are some of the most notorious coral nippers think I'd best give that a miss too!

I haven't personally tried it but I have seen numerous photos in tanks that sized of 2 pairs of centropyge. So it seems doable. But pairing them in the same tank generally doesn't work, so like you said pair them up in different QT tanks.

Sounds like I have a plan then, there are still some Biota coral beauty's left for sale over here but I guess its luck of the draw now which sex I get as they will be mature by now (they are from the same batch as mine which arrived in Dec 2016). I might take a risk and buy one closer to the time though as it doesn't look like we'll be getting any more Biota shipments to the UK anytime soon as they have been ignoring requests from the wholesaler, guess they have their hands full meeting the US demand at the mo.

I did read that some species can revert back to female from male (Fishers I think) but that seems a long shot!

 

[pcon]

Sounds like I have a plan then, there are still some Biota coral beauty's left for sale over here but I guess its luck of the draw now which sex I get as they will be mature by now (they are from the same batch as mine which arrived in Dec 2016). I might take a risk and buy one closer to the time though as it doesn't look like we'll be getting any more Biota shipments to the UK anytime soon as they have been ignoring requests from the wholesaler, guess they have their hands full meeting the US demand at the mo.

I did read that some species can revert back to female from male (Fishers I think) but that seems a long shot!

Its hard to say with the coral beauties, they can transition completely with in 60days but i have also seen female flames that have been kept on their own for over a year. Confounding it even more is the coral beauties are only sexually dimorphic during the spawning ritual, and by that point you already know.

Some families can transition back and forth, I am not sure that the superfamily Percoidea, containing Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae, contains any simultaneous or bidirectional Hermaphrodites. While limited most literature says that Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae are generally referred to as Protogynous hermaphrodites. It would be great to get more research into this but as bidirectional hermaphroditism is a very rare phenomenon in vertebrates, Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae, should be assumed to be Protogynous hermaphrodites until further research comes out.

 

[Claus84]

Its hard to say with the coral beauties, they can transition completely with in 60days but i have also seen female flames that have been kept on their own for over a year. Confounding it even more is the coral beauties are only sexually dimorphic during the spawning ritual, and by that point you already know.

Some families can transition back and forth, I am not sure that the superfamily Percoidea, containing Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae, contains any simultaneous or bidirectional Hermaphrodites. While limited most literature says that Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae are generally referred to as Protogynous hermaphrodites. It would be great to get more research into this but as bidirectional hermaphroditism is a very rare phenomenon in vertebrates, Chaetodontidae and Pomacanthidae, should be assumed to be Protogynous hermaphrodites until further research comes out.

I got the species wrong it was ferrugata not fishers but it seems that this species at least can revert back to female according to this paper - http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.2108/zsj.20.627. I suppose though its anyones guess how likely this is in other species and quite how much warfare would ensue in the process in an aquarium setting.

I think i'll definitely try another beauty and flame and maybe a pair of something else also, maybe multicolors if captive bred make there way over here. It'll be a fairly expensive endeavour if I do end up with the wrong sex as captive bred don't come cheap but seems like the payoff it probably worth the risk!

 

[Claus84]

Hi @pcon, I have gone with the pair option rather than a harem as you suggested. I have just purchased a 4 month old CB flame which I am going to try and pair up with my existing 2+ yr old CB flame. Planning to place them both in a 3ft QT seperated by eggcrate so they can figure each other at first, any tips on what to look out for when introducing them? Should I expect any bullying from the larger flame, how long do they generally take to pair up?

Thanks

Nick

 

[pcon]

I have tried a bunch of different ways, keeping them separated with eggcrate and observing is the best conservative option, and what I would recommend because I would hate for you to lose a fish from my bad advice. That being said, I have had good luck with flames by just introducing them at the same time to a new tank, that way neither feels it is their territory. Then observing closely the first few days. I was surprised that when there was a big size difference the males tend to be less aggressive. This doesn't apply to large full grown males who are used to being alone, and I have a small sample size. But I found that the medium-large obvious males tended to take small flames better. But your results with that may vary. Just watch closely for fin damage and be prepared to intervene quickly, as things can go south quickly. Good Luck! flames are relatively easy, and gorgeous.

 

[Claus84]

I have tried a bunch of different ways, keeping them separated with eggcrate and observing is the best conservative option, and what I would recommend because I would hate for you to lose a fish from my bad advice. That being said, I have had good luck with flames by just introducing them at the same time to a new tank, that way neither feels it is their territory. Then observing closely the first few days. I was surprised that when there was a big size difference the males tend to be less aggressive. This doesn't apply to large full grown males who are used to being alone, and I have a small sample size. But I found that the medium-large obvious males tended to take small flames better. But your results with that may vary. Just watch closely for fin damage and be prepared to intervene quickly, as things can go south quickly. Good Luck! flames are relatively easy, and gorgeous.

Got my new flame yesterday. it's in a divided 20g with my older flame. There is a HUGE size difference between the two so I think I may have to wait a while before introducing them. I wonder though is there a chance the smaller fish will mature into a male if they are kept seperate, even though they can see each other?

If you have any recomendations on what size the smaller fish should be before I attempt introductions then please let me know. I would estimate the smaller fish is around 3/4"at the moment

thanks

Nick

 

[Claus84]

Vid below to give an idea of the size difference!

 

[ca1ore]

I have a flame pair in my tank. Second was slightly larger than the first when introduced. It's a big tank, so room for them to avoid each other. Some initial hazing, but now they're pretty good together. 3/4" is tiny though. Sometimes a tiny fish gets left alone because it's not viewed as a threat; sometimes not.

 

[pcon]

I wouldn't worry about it changing into male if you keep it in a set up like that. The small one is absolutely tiny, good call on keeping them separated. Probably needs some bulk to survive the normal bickering of a flame angel pair.

 

[Claus84]

I have a flame pair in my tank. Second was slightly larger than the first when introduced. It's a big tank, so room for them to avoid each other. Some initial hazing, but now they're pretty good together. 3/4" is tiny though. Sometimes a tiny fish gets left alone because it's not viewed as a threat; sometimes not.

Wow your tank looks great, love all the damsels hiding in amongst your acros. I have 3 captive bred azures and hope to get a load more if they become available again. It is by far the smallest angel I have ever seen, that'll teach me to request the smallest they had

 

[Claus84]

I wouldn't worry about it changing into male if you keep it in a set up like that. The small one is absolutely tiny, good call on keeping them separated. Probably needs some bulk to survive the normal bickering of a flame angel pair.

Thats good to know, I think they will be seperated for quite a while before I dare to introduce them. The little one is still extremely timid and i'm having a bit of a hard time getting it to eat but fingers crossed it'll all work out okay

 

[OrionN]

Well, I am late to the game on this thread, butI do have plenty of experiences with keeping Flame Angels, in harem (up to 5) and pair. I recently also have a harem (3) of African Flameback Angel.
Both of these species are clearly dimorphic so it is really easy. Both exists as harem in nature. It is very easy to pair,form harem with Dwarf Angels. All you need is a large enough tank and make sure you have 1 or less male. If this is the case, then we will have a harem when we add them in a tank.
In large enough tank, 65 gal plus tank for these two species, there will not be any injury when you add multiple angel (of the same species as long as there is 1 male. I have not try to add multiple species together in small to medium tanks. In large tank (420) I have keep multiple species of Dwarf Angels before but there were only 1 male and my Cherub, and Brazilian Flame back spawned with my Coral Beauty which was the male. I don't think it is a good idea to put two male Dwarf angels together, similar to put in two male Dwarf angels of the same species together.
I keep a Harem of 5 Flame angels together for many years, they always spawn regularly. It is really neat to see the male spawning with multiple females. He court them for 30-60 minutes then spawned with each of them one right after the other. Currently I have 4 flame in my 320 which spawn regularly.
I also have a harem of 3 African Flameback angels that have been together for several months, in a 65 gal. They are doing great, but either due to the small size of the tank, or becasue they are a more aggressive species, they seem to chase each other a lot more than Flame angels. I never see any injury on any of the three Flameback angels, even if they take runs at each other. The smallest one still eat very well and is also very fat, the same as the other two.

This is a thread on my Flameback angel Harem. The first few video, the three fish were just three female, but the largest change sex quickly. I don't want to bore everybody so I have not update this thread for a while.

My Centropyge acanthops harem, African Flameback Dwarf Angel

I have to reset up my office 65 gal tank this year. It sprung a leak after 7 years or so. After much deliberation, I settle with a list of fishes as below: Tomini Tang Copper Banded Butterfly Harem of 3 African Flameback dwarf angels A pair of clown fish, Black snowflakes, breed by a friend of...

www.reef2reef.com