Calling all Lanthanum chloride users: got any AEFW?

[The Opinionated Reefer]

What is KCI? Also, what is the actual protocol for the lanthanum dosage?

There is a very effective dip we use in the UK called Dettol, it an antiseptic. 0.3ml per Litre will kill them in seconds without killing the coral. The coral will likely sulk for a while though.

 

[ScottB]

KCl is potassium chloride. It is commonly used over here as an acropora dip. It is cheap, safe and a very effective dip for flatworms.

Here is a link to in tank lanthanum dosing which I follow. The amount to dose depends upon the strength of the solution. I would not dose lanthanum unless your PO4 is well over .1

The Lanthanum Solution: Combating Flatworms in the Reef Aquarium - CORAL Magazine

Daniel Knop examines the many methods that reef aquarists employ in an effort to eliminate problematic flatworm pests in reef tanks, including one option that may well be the ultimate weapon to eliminate flatworms once and for all!

www.reef2rainforest.com

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

KCl is potassium chloride. It is commonly used over here as an acropora dip. It is cheap, safe and a very effective dip for flatworms.

Here is a link to in tank lanthanum dosing which I follow. The amount to dose depends upon the strength of the solution. I would not dose lanthanum unless your PO4 is well over .1

The Lanthanum Solution: Combating Flatworms in the Reef Aquarium - CORAL Magazine

Daniel Knop examines the many methods that reef aquarists employ in an effort to eliminate problematic flatworm pests in reef tanks, including one option that may well be the ultimate weapon to eliminate flatworms once and for all!

www.reef2rainforest.com

I read the article but it doesn't say if it's a one-off dose or a continual dose of lanthanum for a period of time?

 

[ScottB]

I read the article but it doesn't say if it's a one-off dose or a continual dose of lanthanum for a period of time?

I interpreted the article as suggesting one & done. In my experience, two doses did not eliminate aefw.

The limiting factor is just how much PO4 you have to spare IMO. But I guess you could just keep dosing it back up with a phosphate solution and hit it again with lanthanum.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I interpreted the article as suggesting one & done. In my experience, two doses did not eliminate aefw.

The limiting factor is just how much PO4 you have to spare IMO. But I guess you could just keep dosing it back up with a phosphate solution and hit it again with lanthanum.

did it have any affect?

 

[ScottB]

did it have any affect?

I cannot confirm that it had any effect at all. I was hammering the worms from many angles at the same time. I eventually got them under control with rip&dip, predators, KZ flatworm stop, AEFW-X. I also got increasingly aggressive about chopping up severely affected colonies and just saving a few clean frags. It gets really hard to remove ALL the eggs from colonies.

 

[reef_ranch]

How goes the battle? We seem to be on similar paths right now.

I haven't dosed any LC since April because my phosphate had gotten out of whack with my nitrate: .01 to 25ppm. My phosphate is up to .1 - .08 and the nitrates are hovering around 20. I haven't noticed any flatworms or bite marks but decided to do a thorough basting yesterday, fully expecting to see at least a few. I was pretty shocked to find that only one flatworm blew into the water column. I'm hoping the population is down to a very few. If I see more, I'll dose the LC again.

I did have an unfortunate temp rise in the tank in June to 85 degrees and a likely too quick 8 hour drop down to 78 once I noticed the problem and fixed the chiller. All of the SPS were not happy with the heat and a large colony of Vivid Confetti completely bleached the day after the temp dropped to 78.

I can't discount the possibility that this temp swing may have had an effect on the flatworm population, but the evidence points more squarely at the LC.

 

[ScottB]

I haven't dosed any LC since April because my phosphate had gotten out of whack with my nitrate: .01 to 25ppm. My phosphate is up to .1 - .08 and the nitrates are hovering around 20. I haven't noticed any flatworms or bite marks but decided to do a thorough basting yesterday, fully expecting to see at least a few. I was pretty shocked to find that only one flatworm blew into the water column. I'm hoping the population is down to a very few. If I see more, I'll dose the LC again.

I did have an unfortunate temp rise in the tank in June to 85 degrees and a likely too quick 8 hour drop down to 78 once I noticed the problem and fixed the chiller. All of the SPS were not happy with the heat and a large colony of Vivid Confetti completely bleached the day after the temp dropped to 78.

I can't discount the possibility that this temp swing may have had an effect on the flatworm population, but the evidence points more squarely at the LC.

Thanks for contributing your experience. Sorry about the 85 temp; acros gonna hate on that and I love Vivid's Confetti.

Unlike the authors I quoted before, I cannot confirm that LCl did much against my aefw after two recommended level doses of ElimiPhos from Tropic Marin. It was safe and effective at removing PO4 but my worms seemed unaffected.

 

[reef_ranch]

Thanks for contributing your experience. Sorry about the 85 temp; acros gonna hate on that and I love Vivid's Confetti.

Unlike the authors I quoted before, I cannot confirm that LCl did much against my aefw after two recommended level doses of ElimiPhos from Tropic Marin. It was safe and effective at removing PO4 but my worms seemed unaffected.

Interesting that the ElimiPhos had no effect on your AEFW while it seems (key word) to have reduced my population significantly. Perhaps the difference is that I dosed at higher than the recommended level.
BTW, I dosed KZ Flatworm Stop daily at the recommended rate for more than a year prior to trying the LC. I believed (with no clear evidence) that it kept the population from exploding, but whenever I basted I would get 5-20 worms blown off the corals and could always see eggs. I didn’t lose colonies but the 3 or 4 that the AEFW affected certainly weren’t very happy. (The Confetti never had AEFW)

 

[ScottB]

Interesting that the ElimiPhos had no effect on your AEFW while it seems (key word) to have reduced my population significantly. Perhaps the difference is that I dosed at higher than the recommended level.
BTW, I dosed KZ Flatworm Stop daily at the recommended rate for more than a year prior to trying the LC. I believed (with no clear evidence) that it kept the population from exploding, but whenever I basted I would get 5-20 worms blown off the corals and could always see eggs. I didn’t lose colonies but the 3 or 4 that the AEFW affected certainly weren’t very happy. (The Confetti never had AEFW)

Well that is good to hear really. That is the kind of input I have been searching for. I have a liter or two of trisodium phosphate laying around. I might just dose up so I can hit that system a little harder with Elimi-Phos.

My worms are very selective about which colonies they prefer. Many are completely untouched while others are under constant attack. Almost to the point where I've got my victim colonies all on one rack so that I can just pull that rack and drop it in a bin of potassium chloride tank water.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Old thread bump

I was cleaning out a closet and found the actual article with the LC in tank treatment protocol for anyone interested

 

[BanjoBandito]

This really sounds like snake oil. I would need to see scientific proof that it did anything to flatworms. These seems like “garlic cures ich” stuff. I’m a little shocked it ended up in coral magazine. I’m gonna peruse online and see if I can find any lab tests on this. If you can remove a couple flatworms I would run a “test cup” just to see any reaction.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I see a study commonly cited by dr Briner from San Diego but it’s dealing with freshwater flatworms…there’s a study in German, and I don’t read German. ‍

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

This really sounds like snake oil. I would need to see scientific proof that it did anything to flatworms. These seems like “garlic cures ich” stuff. I’m a little shocked it ended up in coral magazine. I’m gonna peruse online and see if I can find any lab tests on this. If you can remove a couple flatworms I would run a “test cup” just to see any reaction.

I agree with your skepticism but disagree with your “snake oil” label and don’t think it’s fair to the manufacturers of these products. These products make no claim to be effective on aefw like flatworm stop and aefw-x which could be fairly labeled snake oil.

I only posted bc I’ve never seen the actual article with the instructions

 

[ScottB]

Old thread bump

I was cleaning out a closet and found the actual article with the LC in tank treatment protocol for anyone interested

Thanks for posting. I still have all issues of Coral Magazine in a pile.

I never repeated the dosing with any consistent frequency (as the article suggests). I don't like bouncing levels of PO4 from adding/removing repeatedly. And after Bill Bramucci's fish kill from LC dosing, I am more wary. That said, I dose (very gently) maybe once a month. Perhaps that is helping control aefw.

I haven't done a KCl dip in a long while and probably should.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Thanks for posting. I still have all issues of Coral Magazine in a pile.

I never repeated the dosing with any consistent frequency (as the article suggests). I don't like bouncing levels of PO4 from adding/removing repeatedly. And after Bill Bramucci's fish kill from LC dosing, I am more wary. That said, I dose (very gently) maybe once a month. Perhaps that is helping control aefw.

I haven't done a KCl dip in a long while and probably should.

Bill used the industrial strength version for swimming pools. I’ve only ever used the LC products designed for aquariums at 2mls per 50g and never had any problems with fish. I don’t use 10 micron socks or extra mechanical etc. I just squirt it an area of high flow.

 

[jda]

I have come to the conclusion, through just basic process of elimination, paying attention and anecdotes, that there are likely more than one kind of AEFW that people deal with... so nothing scientific at all. I am sure that most know the disdain that I have for UWC and their lies, but purge was able to kill an easy-to-kill variety whereas it would not kill others, like the one that Dr. Kate Rawlinson studied. I was able to help a local rid a tank of AEFW (the kinds the Dr. Rawlinson studied) with 6 months of flatworm stop dosing every day and many other have had this work too - this tank is still flatworm free. I have had dozen of PMs with questions and thanks from people who had their tanks eradicated too. However, some have not with the same protocol and they are good, reliable hobbyists who were patient and trustworthy with their doses - I suppose that something like an interaction with another additive could be to blame, so who knows. I have tried to not pay attention to the ones who cannot read and expected the treatment to work with a few doses or in a few weeks. Again, this is only mostly based off of anecdotes.

Is it possible that LC could kill some variety of worms? Sure. Will it work on all? I doubt it. It might work on the delta variant of AEFW, but not the omicron?

As for snake oil, what product comes in a bottle that anybody needs for their tanks? Anybody? Bueller? Salt, some sort of carbonate and calcium (I guess that these could come in bottles) and maybe some iron? One persons snake oil is another persons sworn-by remedy... neither is probably true.

I have seen high doses of LC kill fish for really good hobbyists. It seems fine at lower concentrations, so if you are not going to use a sock, then keep the addition low and slow.

From all that I have seen and heard, the hobby stuff and the pool stuff is the same, but at lower/different concentrations. Do the math to dilute and you can use either. It appears similar to GFO where it is only really made in a few places and it is all probably from the same source.

 

[ScottB]

Bill used the industrial strength version for swimming pools. I’ve only ever used the LC products designed for aquariums at 2mls per 50g and never had any problems with fish. I don’t use 10 micron socks or extra mechanical etc. I just squirt it an area of high flow.

Yeah, he asked me if I used Seaklear and I said no way.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yeah, he asked me if I used Seaklear and I said no way.

It would be interesting if you could catch some of your worms and put them in a bucket and dose LC to see if anything happens

 

[ScottB]

It would be interesting if you could catch some of your worms and put them in a bucket and dose LC to see if anything happens

I think (hope, pray) they are still gone. It is about time that I should pull a handful of their favorite colonies and dip to double check. Been distracted with plumbing the new frag tank for a full week now.