Calling Humblefish and Melypr1985 and all others

[Ryan Toovey]

Long story made as short as possible. Thanks in advance for your time.

I've been working on a complete quarantine system for all fish, coral and inverts since February. My DT (75 gal with sump) was running for almost a year when I added a Hippo Tang to the display which developed white spots. When I saw this, I assumed it was Crypto due to everything I have read (mostly on this site). I rounded up all fish, put them into quarantine and started cupramine on 2/22/2019. The fish were: 1 Hippo Tang, 2 Clowns, 1 Fox Face, 1 Tail Spot Blenny, 1 Blue Damsel, 1 Diamond Goby and 1 Fire Fish.

At no time, including the 30 days in copper, did any other fish exhibit any white spots. The Hippo Tang's spots gradually disappeared. However, the Hippo developed lateral line erosion that continued to worsen. I moved the Hippo into a separate and completely fresh (bought brand new tank and equipment) quarantine at day 25 as I believed the copper may be to blame. I did a large water change in the main quarantine and ran cuprisorb until copper was undetectable.

At this point, I figured I would move the Hippo back into the main quarantine and prepare everyone to go into the DT. As soon as the Hippo hit the water (matching parameters) it instantly developed white spots all over. Looking back and knowing what I know now, these spots (including the initial spots) may have been much larger than the sprinkles that are normally described as Crypto.

Thinking I still had Crypto and believing that the Hippo would not survive another round of copper, I returned the Hippo to the LFS who was made well aware of my dilemma. I have replaced the Hippo with a Sailfin Tang who was added to the main quarantine on 5/26/19. This fish was in .5 cupramine at a different LFS for over 2 weeks (I understand this is not reliable). All of my fish, including the Sailfin have been under observation since then with no signs of disease apart from some stringy feces from the Fox Face and Clowns (clowns have had this since the start of the tank in May 2018). The only fish that ever had spots was the Hippo.

I am now struggling with whether to run copper again or just do the API general cure for internal parasites. I just finished 2 rounds of Prazi Pro. Mind you, my DT has been fallow since February and I'm not even sure if I ever had Crypto. If I did, I do not want to risk re-introducing it. I'm super ready for things to get back to normal but not at the expense of a future outbreak.

Thank you so much for reading this far.

-Ryan

 

[GoVols]

@4FordFamily @HotRocks

 

[Old Fritz]

I always do a run of copper first but if you think internal parasites are more of a priority right now i would do that as I am not a fan of running two medications at the same time. However if you bind antiparasitic medication to food it should be fine with copper. Just know just because you don't see the disease doesn't mean its not there although the thirty days of copper should've dealt with the issue but I believe there are some people here with strong opinions about cupramine and its effectiveness compared to other types of copper. Lateral line erosion is typically a diet thing if your hippo wasn't eating well (which is possible considering it was sick and medication might've stressed it more).

 

[Old Fritz]

also for future reference prazi does not kill most parasites metroplex is a better choice or better yet general cure is even better as it contains both metro and prazi

 

[Ryan Toovey]

Thanks for the reply. I ran the Prazipro just in case any flukes were present. I’m trying to cover all bases. I learned about general cute later and I have focus to bind if I decide to do copper. What copper treatment is most highly recommended?

@Humblefish @melypr1985

 

[HotRocks]

@Ryan Toovey

I personally prefer using chelated copper (copper power specifically). The main reason is because it is less harsh on wrasses and other fish known to be copper sensitive. It also has a much wider treatment window. 1.5ppm is the minimum therapeutic level. Manufacturer recommendation is 2.5ppm. I like to be right in the middle around 2.0ppm.

I would run my own copper treatment on any fish (even if the LFS says they had it in copper). That's just how I do it. There are several people here who would advise against a second run. My problem is if I didn't do it myself I don't know how long or what level the fish was treated at. This is problematic for me because I have invested tons of time in treating all my other fish and I'm not willing to risk my entire DT population due to the amount of hard to keep/hard to QT fish I keep.

Prazipro is more effective for an external fluke treatment. The concentration is higher than GC.

GC is great to mix with food for treating intestinal worms/parasites.

If you don't want to treat the fish with copper again, you could get a FW Molly and convert it to SW. Place it in with your current fish. The Molly will not have any type of resistance to SW parasites and would show anything that is lurking within 2 weeks.

 

[4FordFamily]

@Ryan Toovey

I personally prefer using chelated copper (copper power specifically). The main reason is because it is less harsh on wrasses and other fish known to be copper sensitive. It also has a much wider treatment window. 1.5ppm is the minimum therapeutic level. Manufacturer recommendation is 2.5ppm. I like to be right in the middle around 2.0ppm.

I would run my own copper treatment on any fish (even if the LFS says they had it in copper). That's just how I do it. There are several people here who would advise against a second run. My problem is if I didn't do it myself I don't know how long or what level the fish was treated at. This is problematic for me because I have invested tons of time in treating all my other fish and I'm not willing to risk my entire DT population due to the amount of hard to keep/hard to QT fish I keep.

Prazipro is more effective for an external fluke treatment. The concentration is higher than GC.

GC is great to mix with food for treating intestinal worms/parasites.

If you don't want to treat the fish with copper again, you could get a FW Molly and convert it to SW. Place it in with your current fish. The Molly will not have any type of resistance to SW parasites and would show anything that is lurking within 2 weeks.

I have nothing to add to this, other than hippo tangs are sensitive to HLLE and yes copper can worsen it. I’ve noticed ionic copper seems to be more harmful to them as far as HLLE goes but they usually recover almost entirely from HLLE lasting from 30-60 days in quarantine with clean water, a varied, highly nutritious diet. Soak foods in zoecon, zoe, selcon, or vita chem. Zoe and zoecon are best for HLLE I believe although all are good. I actually mix all of them.

 

[Ryan Toovey]

When I still had the Hippo. Could it have been anything other than Crypto?

 

[Idoc]

If you don't want to treat the fish with copper again, you could get a FW Molly and convert it to SW. Place it in with your current fish. The Molly will not have any type of resistance to SW parasites and would show anything that is lurking within 2 weeks.

Id heard this before as a check for ich due to the molly being resistant to SW diseases. But, this doesn't make much sense. The SW fish you just quarantine and treated probably doesn't have any resistance to FW diseases the molly could be introducing to your SW fish! How do you know that Molly isn't diseased?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Id heard this before as a check for ich due to the molly being resistant to SW diseases. But, this doesn't make much sense. The SW fish you just quarantine and treated probably doesn't have any resistance to FW diseases the molly could be introducing to your SW fish! How do you know that Molly isn't diseased?

What freshwater diseases can be transferred to saltwater?

 

[HotRocks]

Id heard this before as a check for ich due to the molly being resistant to SW diseases. But, this doesn't make much sense. The SW fish you just quarantine and treated probably doesn't have any resistance to FW diseases the molly could be introducing to your SW fish! How do you know that Molly isn't diseased?

The SW fish could still be resistant. Some saltwater fish like Wrasse, gobies, clowns etc are very resistant to external parasites like ich/velvet.

FW parasites aren't able to live in SW and vice versa. That's why it works.

 

[Idoc]

What freshwater diseases can be transferred to saltwater?

I don't know, that was kind of my question to see how this could work safely. But, I'd think something would eventually become resistant and able to adapt to both since in nature the two bodies of water come together at all river deltas where there are whole species that just live in brackish water. You'd think parasites in those converging water types would become adaptive to both types of water.

But, if the molly trick works, then great. A black molly would make it easily to spot if ich is in the water!

 

[ReefHog]

I believe most if not all black mollies available are captive bred. So they’ve never been in even brackish water. That being said, could they develop some resistance after being in salt water for a period of time. I’ve been using the same molly for observation for a few months now. Never really thought about it till now.

 

[Ryan Toovey]

I had considered the black molly method.. However, I’m reluctant to take on the responsibility of more fish.

After reading all replies, I have opted to run one more round of copper. I have one more important question:

Since there haven’t been any signs of Crypto for months, would it be advisable to run copper for 14 days and then start transferring the fish slowly back to the DT?

This would be the same as running copper for 14 days and then transferring into a known clean tank for observation. If I transferred them into a fresh quarantine, I wouldn’t expect for there to be anything to observe anyway since none of these fish have ever showed any signs of Crypto.

Thanks for all the time and help!
@Humblefish @melypr1985 @HotRocks @4FordFamily

 

[4FordFamily]

I had considered the black molly method.. However, I’m reluctant to take on the responsibility of more fish.

After reading all replies, I have opted to run one more round of copper. I have one more important question:

Since there haven’t been any signs of Crypto for months, would it be advisable to run copper for 14 days and then start transferring the fish slowly back to the DT?

This would be the same as running copper for 14 days and then transferring into a known clean tank for observation. If I transferred them into a fresh quarantine, I wouldn’t expect for there to be anything to observe anyway since none of these fish have ever showed any signs of Crypto.

Thanks for all the time and help!
@Humblefish @melypr1985 @HotRocks @4FordFamily

You could do that, but the observation period has saved my DT so many times I struggle to recommend it. But your logic does make sense.