Calling Kessil 360W users- color & intensity?

[nervousmonkey]

http://s287.photobucket.com/user/tswifty8/media/PAR Readings/FTSPARclean_011110.jpg.html
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/24/74/df/2474df6318d9a472fee8fc2f36b5e19b.jpg
http://s249.photobucket.com/user/123Rhys/media/TS83.jpg.html
http://www.buckeyereef.com/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2015/post-63-0-32973100-1439646741.jpg
same corals different pars.

Hey Salty, do you know the light fixture for the last picture? That thing puts out 1100 PAR at the surface but within 12", the PAR is down by a factor of 10. I know it's a tall tank and I can't really see how clean the water is, but that's a big dropoff. In comparison to the first linked photo, do you know the wattage and bulb spectrum of that halide fixture? It doesn't seem right at all to have a PAR of only 450 to less than 500 right under the reflector, then it hits the water and we get 250's under each light (ignoring the overlap) which basically stay the same all the way to the bottom... Just wondering, I know they aren't your photos and that you didn't take the readings, but it seems like someone made some user errors in the PAR readings.
Correct me if I am wrong, but PAR is much easier to get wrong than LUX, correct? Since PAR contains spectrum and LUX is simple intensity of light regardless of whether it's all purple or all green (I added purple on purpose, sorry man couldn't help but make you think of an all purple tank at 50,000 LUX)....

 

[GoVols]

Correct me if I am wrong, but PAR is much easier to get wrong than LUX, correct? Since PAR contains spectrum and LUX is simple intensity of light regardless of whether it's all purple or all green (I added purple on purpose, sorry man couldn't help but make you think of an all purple tank at 50,000 LUX)....

Tagging with you on this

 

[slayerhellfire]

Not to jack the thread but how high are you off the water with the t5? Im about to install a retrofit 2bulb t5 (non-dimmable) with the kessil 360.

prob about less than 10 inches or so

 

[GoVols]

prob about less than 10 inches or so

lol,
The two Kessil / T5 hybirds meet, again.

 

[Midrats]

lol,
I still love them old dogs but the wife would shoot me.

She's not going back to MH/T5 supportive.

It looks like a shotgun went off in most rooms in my house from all the lights and tanks over the years. I've patched the holes but the scars still remain. Hanging lights are no longer welcome around here.

 

[GoVols]

It looks like a shotgun went off in most rooms in my house from all the lights and tanks over the years. I've patched the holes but the scars still remain. Hanging lights are no longer welcome around here.

lol,
Thanks sounds like my wife.

"The den is not going to look science project, anymore!"

So if the Philips 'Coral Care" hits the US there's no way she'll let me buy that industrial looking light with all the power cords and mounting cables.

Spoiled her when we bought the Red Sea S Series back in 2013.

Kinda like the movie "Mommy Dearest"
Just replace "No more wire hangers" with "No more exposed wires".

 

[GoVols]

Dang!
That movie scene still freaks me out.

And (lol) my wife never goes off like that.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

But their's a lot of Bose haters out there too.

Yes but those people are dumb.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

(I added purple on purpose, sorry man couldn't help but make you think of an all purple tank at 50,000 LUX)....

Oh bro, I dont mind the purple man. Kinda dig it really......

do you know the light fixture for the last picture?

No those were pretty random to illustrate a point. That in context being a zoa will take 100 par or 500 par if conditions are right.

The next point you bring up is Par meters are just like any other test kit, prone to error. Yes, to an extent color<IMO esp LED, are prone to error as if you wore a white t shirt too close it should give you a false readin, and rigt next to a rock is kida doing the same as the coral sees more of the light than the sensor AND its a human doing the test. And it may be their first time. Impossible to tell.
And, the "ball" on the Par meter is TINY! For a broad souce like a mh or t5 yea ok, but casing the lil led spot? I had a conve recently about that, yo have to point the sensor just right exactly at the thing????

That thing puts out 1100 PAR at the surface but within 12", the PAR is down by a factor of 10

How do you mean a factor of ten?
Water does refract and you lose light, reflectors are not equal, by any means. Single leds can be read incorrectly( discoIMO). Note pics of tanks with actual spots on the rock and sand because their freeze framed. If its a "white" it has more par than the 456nm at the same intensity. That also makes me suspicious of what a coral gets btw.

I have (because im a young old guy and stated hoarding late in life), two 150w mh pendant fixtures. One coralife, one I forget, both cost about $700 new. The coralife is pretty even with a bit of a brighter spot in the middle as it should,. the other one has a hot spot so tiny and focused it nearly turned the sand on the bottom of my tank into glass. Both were advertised as the same thing. ANd most wouldn't notice a difference without a side by side.

 

[James Jordan]

Not to hijack this thread but has anyone seen par numbers from a 360w? I'm curious if mine are to be expected.

I feel like my numbers are terrible. This was taken with an apogee this week...

With 100% intensity, full blue color I average 40 PAR on the sandbed, around 50 PAR 6 inches up, 100 PAR 12 inches up, and 125 right below the water line (with 200+ right under the light).

With 100% intensity, full white color I average 60 PAR on the sandbed, around 75 PAR 6 inches up, 125 PAR 12 inches up, and 150 right below the water line (with 325+ right under the light).

I can't see growing sps under this light. I'm in an innovative marine 40 so it's a 24" tank which kessil says I'm good for with just this 1 light.

 

[waxhawreefer]

This is an old pic, I have a total of four T5 now, not much in this tank yet but I run 100% all blue and leave my T5 for daylight, purple and extra blue , just ramp it up to 100% over a two week period!

 

[Jrco226]

Not to hijack this thread but has anyone seen par numbers from a 360w? I'm curious if mine are to be expected.

I feel like my numbers are terrible. This was taken with an apogee this week...

With 100% intensity, full blue color I average 40 PAR on the sandbed, around 50 PAR 6 inches up, 100 PAR 12 inches up, and 125 right below the water line (with 200+ right under the light).

With 100% intensity, full white color I average 60 PAR on the sandbed, around 75 PAR 6 inches up, 125 PAR 12 inches up, and 150 right below the water line (with 325+ right under the light).

I can't see growing sps under this light. I'm in an innovative marine 40 so it's a 24" tank which kessil says I'm good for with just this 1 light.

I think if you watch the BRS video on their PAR meters for leds you'll see that apogee meters have a difficult time with LED lights. All you have to do is look around and see plenty of gorgeous tanks run under Kessil lighting. Proof is in the pudding.

 

[GoVols]

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[nervousmonkey]

The next point you bring up is Par meters are just like any other test kit, prone to error. Yes, to an extent color<IMO esp LED, are prone to error as if you wore a white t shirt too close it should give you a false readin, and rigt next to a rock is kida doing the same as the coral sees more of the light than the sensor AND its a human doing the test. And it may be their first time. Impossible to tell.
And, the "ball" on the Par meter is TINY! For a broad souce like a mh or t5 yea ok, but casing the lil led spot? I had a conve recently about that, yo have to point the sensor just right exactly at the thing????

Yeah I guess that was my question to you as the resident expert on lighting and all things related to it, including measuring it. The numbers on the charts just seemed off, but then again, I can't tell the clarity of the water. What I meant by factor of 10 is that PAR went from 1100 to 100 in a matter of 8"-12", which seemed strange, so I was trying to find out which of these is more likely:
1. Are there certain lights that have terrible penetration into the water column?
2. Was that because of turbid water and I just couldn't tell?
3. Was that because of user error in measuring the light?
Really? Wearing a white t-shirt will give a false reading on PAR? My other question was: LUX readings are more "stable" than PAR readings, correct? Or better put, less prone to user error? Or did I just dream that I heard that somewhere?

How do you mean a factor of ten?
Water does refract and you lose light, reflectors are not equal, by any means. Single leds can be read incorrectly( discoIMO). Note pics of tanks with actual spots on the rock and sand because their freeze framed. If its a "white" it has more par than the 456nm at the same intensity. That also makes me suspicious of what a coral gets btw.

I have (because im a young old guy and stated hoarding late in life), two 150w mh pendant fixtures. One coralife, one I forget, both cost about $700 new. The coralife is pretty even with a bit of a brighter spot in the middle as it should,. the other one has a hot spot so tiny and focused it nearly turned the sand on the bottom of my tank into glass. Both were advertised as the same thing. ANd most wouldn't notice a difference without a side by side.

OK, so this is where I get confused on the readings... So PAR readings for LED's will give different readings dependent on the mix of spectrum, correct? I hope I am reading that right... So for example, I have two MH and three hydra 26's over one of my tanks, and if I was looking at someone else PAR readings for just the hydra's, I couldn't know exactly that I would be getting the same PAR readings, unless they provide their light settings along with PAR chart, correct? So LED's are just a lot harder to get readings on, at least for PAR. But LUX readings don't have that problem correct? Reason I say that, and correct me if I am wrong, is that LUX doesn't take spectrum into account, just intensity, so a LUX meter, then doing the calculations with a factor of 60 will probably give more accurate PAR readings, esp. for a first time measurer like me for example. I'm trying to decide how I want to start measuring my lights, and not sure how to do it. With halides and LED's on one tank, and T5 and LED's on another tank, how do I measure most accurately? PAR with all lights on seems like a faulty way to measure, as I could get a lot of different numbers. LUX seems more accurate, just have to turn on only one of the light sources at a time, then add the calculated PAR values together, correct?
I just want to make sure to get it right, so I don't make decisions based on bad information because I'm new at this and also because I may have halides like the ones you describe.
Should I use a LUX meter and calculate or a PAR meter and deal with the potentially bad readings?

Thanks Salty!!!!
Lloyd

 

[Esage]

This is exactly why I switched from lights where I could adjust every single color. The logical decision of Kessil to limit the user to only the useful spectrums appealed to me. I don't need/want to be able to adjust every diode. I found myself tinkering with the light constantly, now I just sit back and enjoy the tank and the incredible light the 360we puts out.

I ended up moving the light down to eight inches. On full blast I'm pushing 100K lux. I'm running it at 25K lux for now at peak and will ramp up to 30K or a little more over time. Does this sound Ok @saltyfilmfolks?

What intensity are you running to get 25k lux

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Not to hijack this thread but

That's not a hijack THIS is a hijack!

LOOK AT THIS CLAM!!!!https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/favorite-black-box-led-light.290279/page-7#post-3676461

I think if you watch the BRS video on their PAR meters for leds you'll see that apogee meters have a difficult time with LED lights. All you have to do is look around and see plenty of gorgeous tanks run under Kessil lighting. Proof is in the pudding.

Its the older versions. It spurred them to redesign the new models.

James whats the par for both channels at full.?

 

[Midrats]

@Esage I will check when I get home. I haven't settled on a height but since Kessil was so adamant about their recommended height of 12-24" I will probably heed their advice. I have been using the knobs but I will have the Spectral Controller on my front porch when I get home so I will be able to give you a better answer.

 

[GoVols]

That's not a hijack THIS is a hijack!

LOOK AT THIS CLAM!!!!https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/favorite-black-box-led-light.290279/page-7#post-3676461

Lol,
Salty, That's a worthy , hijack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

1. Are there certain lights that have terrible penetration into the water column?
2. Was that because of turbid water and I just couldn't tell?
3. Was that because of user error in measuring the light?
Really? Wearing a white t-shirt will give a false reading on PAR? My other question was: LUX readings are more "stable" than PAR readings, correct? Or better put, less prone to user error? Or did I just dream that I heard that somewhere?

Yeah I guess that was my question to you as the resident expert on lighting and all things related to it, including measuring it. The numbers on the charts just seemed off, but then again, I can't tell the clarity of the water. What I meant by factor of 10 is that PAR went from 1100 to 100 in a matter of 8"-12", which seemed strange, so I was trying to find out which of these is more likely:

1. Are there certain lights that have terrible penetration into the water column? Yes. And some have BAD reflectors(MH) We do know focused beam leds can be spotlights.
2. Was that because of turbid water and I just couldn't tell? maybe
3. Was that because of user error in measuring the light? Probably
Really? Wearing a white t-shirt will give a false reading on PAR? My other question was: LUX readings are more "stable" than PAR readings, correct? Or better put, less prone to user error? Or did I just dream that I heard that somewhere? Bigger ball so a larger sampling area.
White reflects light. so stand to close to the meter under bright light= more light. An orange or yellow shirt should do the same as its adding some sun color too. Look at lots of par charts and you see some of this on sand, dark rock etc. SO, Worst thing you can do for par is a black background. It absorbs light. whyte bounces it back in. SO in this case a lux meter can be fooled too...


OK, so this is where I get confused on the readings... So PAR readings for LED's will give different readings dependent on the mix of spectrum, correct? YES
I hope I am reading that right... So for example, I have two MH and three hydra 26's over one of my tanks, and if I was looking at someone else PAR readings for just the hydra's, I couldn't know exactly that I would be getting the same PAR readings, unless they provide their light settings along with PAR chart, correct? YES

So LED's are just a lot harder to get readings on, at least for PAR. But LUX readings don't have that problem correct? Reason I say that, and correct me if I am wrong, is that LUX doesn't take spectrum into account, just intensity, so a LUX meter, then doing the calculations with a factor of 60 will probably give more accurate PAR readings, esp. for a first time measurer like me for example. I'm trying to decide how I want to start measuring my lights, and not sure how to do it. With halides and LED's on one tank, and T5 and LED's on another tank, how do I measure most accurately? PAR with all lights on seems like a faulty way to measure, as I could get a lot of different numbers. LUX seems more accurate, just have to turn on only one of the light sources at a time, then add the calculated PAR values together, correct?YES basically. But if you stick a lux meter in there I think you have a LOT of light 40- 50,L Lux. Thats half of daylight, so I wouldn't worry. Unless you have a really deep tank and are trying to get 300 par on the sand. I recommend to anyone who has a PAR meter and wants to know light to have a lux meter too. lux is one measurement, PAR is two. THe single intensity observation is VERY interesting(and cheap)

Mixed lux par UGG. Here's how you'd do it, but its an estimate.http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/equipment

I just want to make sure to get it right, so I don't make decisions based on bad information because I'm new at this and also because I may have halides like the ones you describe.
Should I use a LUX meter and calculate or a PAR meter and deal with the potentially bad readings? See above, but, If you use a lux meter first(cheap) you will see increases and decreases in intensity IF the reflector or an LED spot light etc.

Now I know folks Get a bit upset if I say I don care that muck for kessils(Freddie), but I also dont like broccoli. Now Wehn I went to MACNA with my little meter I measeres the AP700. @12 it was a DEAD EVEN 35000 lux across the top of a 48x24 tank. I have since said it was brilliant and am directly responsible for several sales of them. its a neat light!

Our friend Jason2459 is doing some great work on Par meter comparison. He does say the seneye is really really good. Kinda silly need to fiddle with it and get it pointed right but....
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...-v2-vs-apex-pmk-vs-apogee-mq-510-full.292681/

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@squareriggersailor
I agree, I don't feel the need to tinker or have effects. I just want great lights that do their job, like the MH/T5 days.
I keep up my husbandry, parameters and enjoy.

I can see why some of the reefers griped at Kessil after the 350 but it took myself a fairly long time to figure out what I liked and what my corals needed with the color spectrum back then.

I own a Bose home surround system and they have never released their watts etc but it sure sounds good.
But their's a lot of Bose haters out there too.

If you you want to tinker around (and there's nothing wrong with that), then scratch Kessil off your list.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salty has his feelings and I respect his point of view.

If I need led help he is the first one on my list and (lol) he watched me flush $900 down the drain. I recovered $500 back and took the other $400 as a lesson learned and went back to Kessil.

lol...
Thank God, that I have a wonderful, caring and supportive wife!

Halides are like an old dog to me so Kessil is the natural choice. I can make it look like an Aqualine Buschke 10000 with a couple of VHO actinics or go full blue for a glow that's completely mental with a simple turn of a knob.

Thank You for the descriptions of color. I file that stuff away. SOME of use were not privileged to see so many of those. And its interesting to see the prfrences. I lean a bit more to the 430 ish range than the 465 range in color choices. but to each their own. I generally try to let folks know that that's an option to be aware of besides adequate power when picking a light..

Yall old school reefers should look at Bill's leds too. Hes an Old guy who I have learned a LOT from. reefledlights.com his full mission was to make leds like MH's