Can’t keep SPS alive !

Jackooze · Feb 24, 2020

I’ve done all the research I can without any positive results. I hope I can explain my tank chemistry and setup for some advice. Any sps that I put inside my tank within two weeks slowly pale and die. Last two months I go every two weeks to my LFS and buy a cheap sps frag to see if it will survive. No luck yet !

Tank is 5 months old after moving and sand was replaced. Never had SPS only softies and LPS.
Reefer 250 65gal
Radion XR 15s - 45% intensity
Reef Octopus 110ss skimmer
Clear water scrubber CW-200 ( oversized )

Chemistry. Trident results - last 2-3 months
Alk - has fluctuated between 8-8.5
Cal - 420-480
Mag 1350
Nitrate - 0 - Salifert
Phosphates - 0.03 - Hanna
PH - 8.3 -8.5. Co2 scrubber
I do monthly water changes 20%

I know my turf scrubber is oversized which is stripping nutrients from the tank. So I realize I have low nitrates so I began dosing sodium nitrate 4 ml ever other day which has brought my Nitrates to 5ppm.

I also started dosing Acropower 10ml weekly for amino acids.

I know there are many variables to why SPS may not survive but from all the research I’ve done everyone says stability is key. I feel like my system is stable but no results. So here I am at a loss what to do to keep any SPS!

Questions.

Does it matter what my alk level is in relations to nitrate and phosphate ?

Should I continue to dose sodium nitrate to keep system at 5ppm or kept it natural ?

Could lights be to intense for my tank with low nitrate ?

dwest · Feb 24, 2020

Jackooze said:
I’ve done all the research I can without any positive results. I hope I can explain my tank chemistry and setup for some advice. Any sps that I put inside my tank within two weeks slowly pale and die. Last two months I go every two weeks to my LFS and buy a cheap sps frag to see if it will survive. No luck yet !

Tank is 5 months old after moving and sand was replaced. Never had SPS only softies and LPS.
Reefer 250 65gal
Radion XR 15s - 45% intensity
Reef Octopus 110ss skimmer
Clear water scrubber CW-200 ( oversized )

Chemistry. Trident results - last 2-3 months
Alk - has fluctuated between 8-8.5
Cal - 420-480
Mag 1350
Nitrate - 0 - Salifert
Phosphates - 0.03 - Hanna
PH - 8.3 -8.5. Co2 scrubber
I do monthly water changes 20%

I know my turf scrubber is oversized which is stripping nutrients from the tank. So I realize I have low nitrates so I began dosing sodium nitrate 4 ml ever other day which has brought my Nitrates to 5ppm.

I also started dosing Acropower 10ml weekly for amino acids.

I know there are many variables to why SPS may not survive but from all the research I’ve done everyone says stability is key. I feel like my system is stable but no results. So here I am at a loss what to do to keep any SPS!

Questions.

Does it matter what my alk level is in relations to nitrate and phosphate ?

Should I continue to dose sodium nitrate to keep system at 5ppm or kept it natural ?

Could lights be to intense for my tank with low nitrate ?

It seems like you have researched well. I think it’s just a matter of time before your sps starts to do well. Just a couple of things I might try. First is I wouldn’t use the algae scrubber nor dose anything like acropower. Just do weekly 10% water changes and whatever you are doing to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Keep adding sodium nitrate to keep nitrates measurable, but they should come up on their own with feeding and the removal of the scrubber. Same goes for phosphate.Turning pale could be from lack of nitrates and phosphate.

I don’t think your lights are too intense, but you could check PAR with a meter if possible. I think BRS rents them.

Is coralline algae growing?

Undertaker · Feb 24, 2020

What is your salinity? I couldn’t keep a greens birdsnest alive much less any other Acro. Checked all parameters except salinity. Because it was always dead on when I mixed, and have a Tunze ato. Well I noticed my ato was not working properly checked my salinity and it was 1.027. Brought it down cleaned my eye sensor on my ato. That was the ticket.

Jackooze · Feb 24, 2020

dwest said:
It seems like you have researched well. I think it’s just a matter of time before your sps starts to do well. Just a couple of things I might try. First is I wouldn’t use the algae scrubber nor dose anything like acropower. Just do weekly 10% water changes and whatever you are doing to maintain calcium and alkalinity. Keep adding sodium nitrate to keep nitrates measurable, but they should come up on their own with feeding and the removal of the scrubber. Same goes for phosphate.Turning pale could be from lack of nitrates and phosphate.

I don’t think your lights are too intense, but you could check PAR with a meter if possible. I think BRS rents them.

Is coralline algae growing?

Thanks for your feedback !
It’s been two months with the same consistent results of bleaching so it has to be something I am doing wrong.

If I turn off my scrubber how do I keep phosphates at .03 - .05 ? Before I installed scrubber I used GFO to control phosphates but hated the constant maintenance of switching the media.

I thought it can’t hurt using acropower because it’s a supply of amino acids which is recommend for a low nutrient system. If I stop using it with low nutrients would that continue to starve the coral ?

Now that you mention coralline algae I haven’t noticed any growth on the glass at all. All my rock had previously been covered so hard to tell from there. What could be the reason for no growth ? My alk is has been consistently stable.

Jackooze · Feb 24, 2020

Undertaker said:
What is your salinity? I couldn’t keep a greens birdsnest alive much less any other Acro. Checked all parameters except salinity. Because it was always dead on when I mixed, and have a Tunze ato. Well I noticed my ato was not working properly checked my salinity and it was 1.027. Brought it down cleaned my eye sensor on my ato. That was the ticket.

I checked my salinity today and it’s 1.026. I use the Hanna digital meter. I wish it were that simple lol.

dwest · Feb 25, 2020

Jackooze said:
Thanks for your feedback !
It’s been two months with the same consistent results of bleaching so it has to be something I am doing wrong.

If I turn off my scrubber how do I keep phosphates at .03 - .05 ? Before I installed scrubber I used GFO to control phosphates but hated the constant maintenance of switching the media.

I thought it can’t hurt using acropower because it’s a supply of amino acids which is recommend for a low nutrient system. If I stop using it with low nutrients would that continue to starve the coral ?

Now that you mention coralline algae I haven’t noticed any growth on the glass at all. All my rock had previously been covered so hard to tell from there. What could be the reason for no growth ? My alk is has been consistently stable.

I think your tank is nutrient starved. I would take that scrubber offline, feed my fish, and allow nitrates and phosphates to go where they go.

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

dwest said:
I think your tank is nutrient starved. I would take that scrubber offline, feed my fish, and allow nitrates and phosphates to go where they go.

I think that’s the next step is to take it offline for a month and just see how the system reacts to it.

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

So late last night I received my ATI icp test.
All results look good but TIN level is high

could this be the reason for sps being pale ?

Lasse · Feb 25, 2020

NO3 = 0,1 and PO4=0,02. How does your other corals looks like? (LPS and softies)

Sincerely Lasse

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

Lasse said:
NO3 = 0,1 and PO4=0,02. How does your other corals looks like? (LPS and softies)

Sincerely Lasse

I have a few torches and hammers that are all fully open. So they look good.

ScottB · Feb 25, 2020

A couple more questions:
a) Fish list?
b) Dry rock start 5 months ago? Did you seed with live rock?

My stock answer is often nutrients & system age. Yes, we have all seen exceptions, but a mature biome is just a happier place for sticks. The rock and substrate has a little more bacterial diversity and a little more stored PO4 that can be released back into the water when it is depleted. It is believed that acros struggle to consume PO4 directly, instead they eat bacteria that has consumed PO4. Lou Ekus of Tropic Marin does a nice slide show presentation on the topic.

There is another line of thinking involving direct nutrient introduction from your fish. They are constantly releasing ammonia into the water via waste and respiration. This is a directly consumable nutrient by acropora the thinking goes.

Heavy nutrient export is fine as long as you have heavy nutrient import. Many of the finest SPS dominant tanks I have seen are fed ENORMOUS amounts of food. Fish food. 4-8 meals a day.

This is a good thread discussing the potential value of bacterial diversity:

Why cant u keep sps?

Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is another, regarding potential value of fish load:

Does anyone think having A LOT of fish aids in having a successful SPS dominant/only reef? Weigh in...

Ok, to play off of @ycnibrc 's bacteria thread, I've seen the most successful, thriving reef tanks having a few common factors between them. Successful to me means great coloration and growth, not just one or the other. 1) The obvious common factor is super clean source water: filters changed...

www.reef2reef.com

Technewb · Feb 25, 2020

Every tank is different so dont chase the low po4. I couldnt grow sps until my tank started showing signs of coraline as i started with dry rock and it took me almost 2 yrs. Currently my tank likes po4 of .05 to .1. Any lower my sps shows signs with no polyp extension. Even at .18 my sps does better than low po4, but i keep it lower so no gha grows. Also check for par, you might think your getting alot of par but in reality your par is too low. My sps do better in par above 300. Start with monti and digi if those grow then you can start acros.

TheRedBeardedReefer · Feb 25, 2020

Where are the frags placed in your tank? 45% might not be too intense for healthy and well acclimated corals, BUT, if you have low nutrients, it might be worth turning the light intensity DOWN for a time allowing them to recover. Depending on what you have in there, this can be tricky to find this balance. For instance, lets say you have a encrusting monti (like seasons greetings) that bleaches out due to low po4. Just increasing po4 may help, but my experience is that the recovery is faster if you drop the light intensity a bit for a few days while the coral recovers, in addressing the nutrient deficiency.
I agree with using a PAR meter, but I've also seen SPS thrive in super low par environments (red cap monti @ 50PAR in a buddy's tank looked amazing, but the tank parameters were super stable for a LONG time). Not all SPS love high light either. My grassy fields Styloconella prefers to hang out in the sand with my LPS, while my fruity pebbles and tropic thunder montis would never tolerate such a low light environment. If you have a buddy with a seneye, their PAR meter is decent as well. You can construct a basic 'wand' to hold it with some pvc, egg crate plastic, and a couple of zip ties. You may also want to check out the PAR database here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r2r-par-database.538894/
Best of luck.

X-37B · Feb 25, 2020

How many fish? How often do you feed? An algae scrubber is not needed imo on a new dead rock tank. For me coralline growth is a sign of stability.
If you have coralline growing your corals will grow.
On another note you see this alot on new dry rock started tanks.
Get a couple pieces of live rock and add to your tank.
It takes forever imo to get a dry rock tank to mature and alot of people chase problems for a long time.

X-37B · Feb 25, 2020

Pics would help too.

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

ScottB said:
A couple more questions:
a) Fish list?
b) Dry rock start 5 months ago? Did you seed with live rock?

My stock answer is often nutrients & system age. Yes, we have all seen exceptions, but a mature biome is just a happier place for sticks. The rock and substrate has a little more bacterial diversity and a little more stored PO4 that can be released back into the water when it is depleted. It is believed that acros struggle to consume PO4 directly, instead they eat bacteria that has consumed PO4. Lou Ekus of Tropic Marin does a nice slide show presentation on the topic.

There is another line of thinking involving direct nutrient introduction from your fish. They are constantly releasing ammonia into the water via waste and respiration. This is a directly consumable nutrient by acropora the thinking goes.

Heavy nutrient export is fine as long as you have heavy nutrient import. Many of the finest SPS dominant tanks I have seen are fed ENORMOUS amounts of food. Fish food. 4-8 meals a day.

This is a good thread discussing the potential value of bacterial diversity:

Why cant u keep sps?

Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is another, regarding potential value of fish load:

Does anyone think having A LOT of fish aids in having a successful SPS dominant/only reef? Weigh in...

Ok, to play off of @ycnibrc 's bacteria thread, I've seen the most successful, thriving reef tanks having a few common factors between them. Successful to me means great coloration and growth, not just one or the other. 1) The obvious common factor is super clean source water: filters changed...

www.reef2reef.com

rock is was originally dry but it’s 3 years old. Bristle tooth tang
Blue hippo
Yellow coarse wrasse
Fairy wrass
Two clown fish
Diamond goby
Dragonet
Blue chromis

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

90's reefer said:
Pics would help too.

At work now. As soon as I get home I will take a pic of the frags

Ifreitas14 · Feb 25, 2020

I had same problem as you with sps so I decided to feed more and bring up my po4 and no3 and my sps started to color up and grow! I also dose redsea A&B and do 10 water Changes every week

Jackooze · Feb 25, 2020

90's reefer said:
How many fish? How often do you feed? An algae scrubber is not needed imo on a new dead rock tank. For me coralline growth is a sign of stability.
If you have coralline growing your corals will grow.
On another note you see this alot on new dry rock started tanks.
Get a couple pieces of live rock and add to your tank.
It takes forever imo to get a dry rock tank to mature and alot of people chase problems for a long time.

The rocks were originally dry but they are 3-4 years old. I recently moved to a new home so only thing I changed was the sand. I feed 1-2 a day and 2 a day automatic feeder. I have 9 fish. I agree regarding coralline algae. I haven’t noticed any growth since I made the move 5 months ago.