Can a DT really be disease-free?

[Humblefish]

Do you guys really do all of this? I would have to blow my brains out ;Drool
My fish get water and that's about it, and if they give me a hard time, they sleep in sawdust. They don't even know what all this stuff is. If my head could spin around, it would have made three and a half revolutions already.

It's more about preparation than actual doing. Attention to detail sorta stuff. How hard is making your own water and maintaining a 10 foot radius between QT & DT?

 

[Brew12]

If I were currently using a QT system it might look something like this....

 

[Paul B]

How hard is making your own water and maintaining a 10 foot radius between QT & DT?

Its not hard, it's ludicrous. But that's just me

 

[chefjpaul]

No, I don't do all this. I eat tilapia in front of my fish since I don't much care for salmon. Unless it has béarnaise sauce on it.

Bearnaise is so 1970[emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Crashjack]

Its not hard, it's ludicrous. But that's just me

When I lived in my previous house, my dogs had around 14 acres to run (supervised). When we moved almost 3 years ago, we knew that wasn't possible at the new house, though the new house sat on a 1.5 acre lot. To accommodate the dogs as best we could, we spent around $3,500 on a wrought iron fence surrounding the back patio, running around 80' long by 30' deep. We spent another $1,500 on an underground fence that encompasses most of the 1.5 acres (including the fenced area). To some, spending $5,000 on outdoor facilities for two dogs, which spend probably 75% of their lives inside the house, is ludicrous. To some, an underground fence is cruel because it can deliver a shock (actually never happens). These folks would rather significantly reduce the dogs running room or risk their dogs running into a busy street, trusting their training and supervision. The point is, who's to say who is right and who is wrong? We all do what we feel is best. I think the most important thing is that we educate ourselves and implement solutions we are comfortable with.

As far as this subject goes, I honestly don't believe that any amount of quarantining, medications, etc. can 100% guaranty a disease-free DT. I also don't believe that feeding live foods or any other nutrition based regimen combined with water quality or lack thereof, can 100% guaranty a disease-free DT. However I do believe that both options have merit and likely reduce the chances of problems in the DT as evidenced by a lot of testimonials as to the successes (and a few failures).

 

[Brew12]

Bearnaise is so 1970[emoji23][emoji23]

Oh, like putting fried Kale on salmon is going to make it taste so much better? ;Smuggrin;Smuggrin

 

[Paul B]

As far as this subject goes, I honestly don't believe that any amount of quarantining, medications, etc. can 100% guaranty a disease-free DT. I also don't believe that feeding live foods or any other nutrition based regimen combined with water quality or lack thereof, can 100% guaranty a disease-free DT. However I do believe that both options have merit and likely reduce the chances of problems in the DT as evidenced by a lot of testimonials as to the successes (and a few failures).

This is of course true as proven by all the disease threads. I don't, and never have believed in a disease free tank of any type. Fish diseases, for me are a non issue because rather than trying to eliminate diseases and parasites, I embrace them and welcome them in my tank. I just keep my fish immune so I don't have to worry about any of this stuff. My tank and fish have been living alongside parasites and diseases for over forty years. It just seems much easier and I never once, in all those years had any fish come down with a communicable disease. All the paired fish are spawning and living long enough to die of old age which is all I can expect. I have been hearing that playing Russian Roulette thing for decades now and it is true that my tank may crash from disease some day. But in less than 4 years my tank will be 50 years old so it has had quite a good run of health. If it crashes now, I will still call it a success.
It seems to me that it is much easier to keep the fish healthy and immune with no quarantine tank, hospital tank or medications than to go through all of this work. We all "enjoy" our hobby in different ways, I prefer not to have to worry if I am introducing a disease and to just sit in front of my tank to enjoy the view. I know there will be no spots or torn fins on a fish because there never is. I am going to buy a new fish tomorrow because one of my spawning yellow wrasses jumped out. I will acclimate it for 20 minutes or so and put it in my tank knowing he will be fine. Unfortunately very healthy fish can jump higher than marginally healthy fish so I do lose some like that. Healthy fish are spawning fish. If they are the type of fish that will spawn in a tank, no manta rays.

Crashjack. 14 acres in my town would cost well over $40,000,000.00. Your dogs are really lucky and I am sure they appreciate you for that.

 

[JamesP]

You have really had that same aquarium for almost 50 years and never once upgraded? Thats honestly terrifying since the life expectancy of silicone sealant is about 20 to 30 years for the good stuff. It sounds like you are one of the lucky ones on many levels, but I dont think most people would or should expect to have your level of luck. If that fish you pick up tomorrow has velvet, your tank is gone. My 2 cents.

 

[Paul B]

You have really had that same aquarium for almost 50 years and never once upgraded? Thats honestly terrifying since the life expectancy of silicone sealant is about 20 to 30 years for the good stuff. It sounds like you are one of the lucky ones on many levels, but I dont think most people would or should expect to have your level of luck. If that fish you pick up tomorrow has velvet, your tank is gone. My 2 cents.

No, I have had this same aquarium for about 40 years. Before this it was in a 40 gallon tank which was considered big in 1971. I moved in 79 and took the tank with me. In my new house I transferred everything into the tank I still have today which is 100 gallons. (I think it is really 90 but I never measured it)
All I had to do was add some gravel as there was no live rock or live coral then. It was only dead coral that we bought in furniture stores for decoration.

If that fish you pick up tomorrow has velvet, your tank is gone. My 2 cents.

So in 46 years you don't think I have added a fish with velvet? I do get that all the time and most people believe that. I have added probably 300 fish in those years and even collected a bunch in the sea. I add mud, rocks, amphipods, seaweed and water from our New York bays every week in the summer. Velvet, even on a naso tang is a non issue in my tank.
You can see in a page from my Log book from 1976 I was keeping a Moorish Idol, copperband butterfly and French angel, with those other fish in a 40 gallon tank. No tang police then and they lived just fine. No quarantine tank then and none now. I did have a hospital tank then because my fish did have all sorts of problems as all fish did then. That was before I figured out how to get my fish immune. I had to figure that out on my own because computers were not invented for quite a while and no one that I knew had a salt tank. They were very rare. Medications were mostly home made and I used pennies for copper. The dose was 20 pennies to the gallon.

 

[Brew12]

You have really had that same aquarium for almost 50 years and never once upgraded? Thats honestly terrifying since the life expectancy of silicone sealant is about 20 to 30 years for the good stuff. It sounds like you are one of the lucky ones on many levels, but I dont think most people would or should expect to have your level of luck. If that fish you pick up tomorrow has velvet, your tank is gone. My 2 cents.

Let me start by saying that I am a fan of, and dedicated use, QT systems. Having said that, if you knew how Paul B keeps his system you would realize it has nothing to do with luck.

His system is a marvel. I believe he upgraded from a 55g to a 100g around 40 years ago. He feeds live food at least daily. He has designed widely replicated live food feeders for his mandarins and pipefish. I find his system to be beautiful but many hobbyists would consider it dirty. If you go diving on a reef some time, his system is much closer to what you will actually find than the typical home aquarium.

I am very confident he could take a fish with early signs of velvet, drop it in his tank, and the fish would have a high chance of living. In fact, part of his success is that he is continually looking to add parasites to his system. I could go on and on about it because I find it fascinating. I just want to emphasize that what he does has nothing to do with luck. The only reason I don't recommend it to more people is that most hobbyists don't have his level of husbandry to pull it off. They want to pull a few parts of what makes his system work and implement it without understanding how his system works as a whole. That tends to end badly.

 

[Paul B]

Here I had a hippo tang and a naso tang (still in that 40 gallon tank. I was treating a French Angel for HLLE which is not surprising keeping that fish in such a small tank. No one knew anything about what size tank to use then. It seemed that I was able to at least help cure that fish with vitamin A which I still use today. No one knew what HLLE was either, there wasn't even a name for it.
As you may see, I learned about fish and fish health by experimenting and not by reading mostly rumors on the internet. Everything was trial and mostly error and I killed more fish than Star Kist Tuna. But I learned first hand how to do this. I just read above that French Angel died by a stupid accident, but I had that fish for 4 years. Not bad for a 40 gallon tank in 1976.
I made my own food (as I do now) because there was no frozen food available, it was mostly flakes and I didn't use them then and I don't now. That is one reason my fish are immune.



Here is that very tank. I can document everything that I post.

 

[JamesP]

Im going to have to look into some of Paul's methods. It sounds quite impressive. Thats a lot of experience you have there. Is there a good place to start if I want to read up on Paul's tricks of the trade? I would like to do a little of both really, quarantine but also keep a really healthy environment. I think this thread covers half of that only and we need to know more about the other half Paul seems to be so good at.

 

[Paul B]

You want to see diseases. I think my tank invented diseases. It seems that my fish were plagued by diseases but I was only writing in the log when a fish got sick which seemed like every few months. Look at the array of medications I was using and making. No wonder many fish died. But many also spawned including blue devils which were one of the few fish you could get then. I had a tetrodon puffer then that I had tooperate on and remove a tumor from inside his belly. He lived 8 years after the operation even though his insurance didn't cover the procedure.
Most of my fish it seems had HLLE. I have a theory of what causes that now but that is for a different thread.

 

[Brew12]

Im going to have to look into some of Paul's methods. It sounds quite impressive. Thats a lot of experience you have there. Is there a good place to start if I want to read up on Paul's tricks of the trade? I would like to do a little of both really, quarantine but also keep a really healthy environment. I think this thread covers half of that only and we need to know more about the other half Paul seems to be so good at.

Here is an interesting thread for you to look at.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-make-a-tank-last-for-40-years-with-few-problems.290237/

 

[Brew12]

Im going to have to look into some of Paul's methods. It sounds quite impressive. Thats a lot of experience you have there. Is there a good place to start if I want to read up on Paul's tricks of the trade? I would like to do a little of both really, quarantine but also keep a really healthy environment. I think this thread covers half of that only and we need to know more about the other half Paul seems to be so good at.

And if you are still interested beyond that, he wrote a book.

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/avant-garde-marine-aquarist/

 

[Paul B]

Im going to have to look into some of Paul's methods. It sounds quite impressive. Thats a lot of experience you have there. Is there a good place to start if I want to read up on Paul's tricks of the trade? I would like to do a little of both really, quarantine but also keep a really healthy environment. I think this thread covers half of that only and we need to know more about the other half Paul seems to be so good at.

You may get into trouble. Most of my methods are frowned upon here and on all forums. I am not sure why but I used to get a lot of hate mail saying I should not teach my method because of that Russian Roulette thing. But if you look on this and any forum, most of this hobby is all about diseases and very little on keeping fish healthy through immunity. That is why I wrote a book. (and a thread on immunity https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/) I can't hear the yelling and if people don't like my methods, they should not read the book. I read it and agree with it, but that's just me and I am not trying to sell you any books. On this, and other forums I am just trying to show interested people a choice. As I said, none of my methods come from re hashed internet rumor. It is all from personal experience keeping many specimins with every disease including velvet which we had no name for then. The rest of my theories came from me SCUBA diving with most of the fish I keep. I have been diving since 1970 and am still at it, but I swim a lot slower now.
Of course there are many fine people on this forum with a different theory. Merideth and Humble come to mind. We have different ways to come to the same conclusion. (I always have to give a plug to Humblefish or he throws eggs at my house)

 

[Paul B]

Brew, you are writing faster than me.

 

[JamesP]

I believe in gathering as much info as possible. I usually end up doing my own thing that is a combination of other peoples methods that works best for me. No two people are the same and information should be used to inspire us to find our own individual way of doing things. Thanks guys, im going to do some reading.

 

[Crashjack]

This is of course true as proven by all the disease threads. I don't, and never have believed in a disease free tank of any type. Fish diseases, for me are a non issue because rather than trying to eliminate diseases and parasites, I embrace them and welcome them in my tank. I just keep my fish immune so I don't have to worry about any of this stuff. My tank and fish have been living alongside parasites and diseases for over forty years. It just seems much easier and I never once, in all those years had any fish come down with a communicable disease. All the paired fish are spawning and living long enough to die of old age which is all I can expect. I have been hearing that playing Russian Roulette thing for decades now and it is true that my tank may crash from disease some day. But in less than 4 years my tank will be 50 years old so it has had quite a good run of health. If it crashes now, I will still call it a success.
It seems to me that it is much easier to keep the fish healthy and immune with no quarantine tank, hospital tank or medications than to go through all of this work. We all "enjoy" our hobby in different ways, I prefer not to have to worry if I am introducing a disease and to just sit in front of my tank to enjoy the view. I know there will be no spots or torn fins on a fish because there never is. I am going to buy a new fish tomorrow because one of my spawning yellow wrasses jumped out. I will acclimate it for 20 minutes or so and put it in my tank knowing he will be fine. Unfortunately very healthy fish can jump higher than marginally healthy fish so I do lose some like that. Healthy fish are spawning fish. If they are the type of fish that will spawn in a tank, no manta rays.

Crashjack. 14 acres in my town would cost well over $40,000,000.00. Your dogs are really lucky and I am sure they appreciate you for that.

I only owned 1 of the 14 acres. We lived in the back of a long cove, a cove that was surrounded by a lake on 3 sides. There were houses on 1+ acre lots on both sides of the street and around the back of the cove. The back yards terminated at the water. Very little traffic came through other than the folks who lived there, and we all had dogs. It was very nice but not $40 mil. I bought the lot empty and built a 3,000 sqft house for around $205 k total in '98.

I don't doubt your methods one bit. When I was in the hobby before, after FW I started SW with a new 55 gal tank. That quickly turned into a reef tank, and then when we moved to the house I just described, the 55g turned into a 75g, which evolved into a 75g and a 55g. When I started, I didn't know anything about quarantining and then learned about it and started quarantining new fish for a month with hyposalinity except when I purchased fish from the LFS that quarantined for 2 weeks (in copper if I remember correctly). Obviously, any parasites that were introduced at the beginning were proliferated throughout both of my tanks in the end. However, I never lost a fish to a parasite infestation and by the time I had the two tanks up and had become pretty knowledgeable, I remember losing only a couple of jumpers and one fish during acclimation (not one I quarantined). I also believe fish can build immunities. I used to bass fish and fished a lot of different lakes and local ponds. Over the years, I caught a few sickly fish covered in tiny white spots, which was some FW parasite. I never caught more than one fish in the same spot or even the same day that I recall that had these parasites. I realize these were larger bodies of water than tanks, but with currents and the hosts being larger, it's hard for me to believe that there wouldn't be evidence of more fish being infected if all it took was the mere presence of parasites. I've only gotten to snorkel over a reef once but have read where seeing a parasitic infestations affecting multiple fish on reefs is rare if not unheard of. Again, a lot of water, but a lot of reef fish are oriented around the structure, which would house the parasites in their "dormant" stages, and it would be very easy to hook-up with a host, especially at night.

That said, obtaining and feeding quality live foods daily would be more difficult for me than a month of medicated quarantine so quarantine probably makes more sense. Unfortunately, I also have no way to quarantine corals for 72+ days in an environment I feel is conducive to their proper care. I never dipped or did anything with my corals in the past, but this time, I'm going to dip in Coral RX, Revive, hydrogen peroxide, or maybe one of these followed by another. I realize my plan isn't near 100% full-proof, but I don't believe 100% full-proof is even achievable so I'm going to get as close as feasible... feasible for me.

 

[Brew12]

That said, obtaining and feeding quality live foods daily would be more difficult for me than a month of medicated quarantine so quarantine probably makes more sense.

That is pretty much the same situation I am in. I just am not willing to take that step yet. So, I QT and prophylactically treat everything.

I realize my plan isn't near 100% full-proof, but I don't believe 100% full-proof is even achievable so I'm going to get as close as feasible... feasible for me.

At the end of the day we can only do the best we can do. We just need to be honest to ourselves about it. I shake my head when someone claims to not be able to afford the $60 worth of QT equipment and meds while they watch and replace $100's in fish in their 180g systems. I can completely sympathize when someone with a 40g set up in a 800sqft apartment says they just don't have the room.