Can BIOPELLETS reduce PO4 and NO3 holistically?

[ReefKeeperElite]

Your graphs are promising as it appears to be keeping your NO3 and PO4 in-check. (I typically don't react to any graph movement unless I see the change over 2 data points to rule out fluctuations and test errors). Your update motivated me to go and do some analysis on my own graphs:

- NO3 continues to decrease steadily over time in-line with the downward graph trajectory. Has not leveled off so continues to test the baseline. My goal is 10-15 ppm. I'm 12.1 now so happy I'm in the range with no other tank changes.
- Surprisingly my PO4 continues to decrease. Worth noting that I changed my passive GFO bag 7 weeks ago. Unfortunately I only started using GFO again over the past several months so I can't establish a normal baseline on how long a passive GFO bag works for my tank. With no other PO4 treatment aside from chaeto, I'm glad to see this trend.


At a minimum this experiment was for me to see if I can use BP to maintain NO3 and PO4 which it appears to continue to work. I can live with a passive GFO bag change if it last 8 weeks as long as I don't have to mess with another reactor.

I’m hoping I don’t have to go down the GFO path. Crossing fingers that the PO4 levels off this coming week, and starts reacting with NO3. That would be a nice Christmas present.

 

[Saltyanimals]

I’m hoping I don’t have to go down the GFO path. Crossing fingers that the PO4 levels off this coming week, and starts reacting with NO3. That would be a nice Christmas present.

I’m not sure my passive GFO bag is doing much anymore. I’m speculating it’s likely exhausted given the time in the sump. It’s laying on top of sump overflows so getting plenty of water to act on. I have no intention of replacement the bag at this point unless I start seeing my PO4 go up since the BP appear to be working. Also worth noting that I’m only 2/3 of the recommended BP given I’m maxed out in my undersized reactor. I’m also 7 weeks since starting the BP which is said to be the starting point where benefits start getting realized.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

My NO3 got as low as 9.2, and PO4 as low as 0.08, right around Christmas time. Not sure what happened, but after that they both started going up. I noticed some bacteria flock buildup on the BP reactor plate, so cleaned it up and topped off the BP. That wasn't it. I noticed some bacteria slime buildup in the sump, so put in an MP10 to keep the sump stirring. Didn't help. I cleaned the skimmer. Nothing. Made sure to keep my CO2 scrubber replenished, kept windows cracked, tuned skimmer multiple times. Nothing, nothing, nothing.

So I'm sitting at 11.7 and 0.38 today.

I've turned the daily 9ml Nopox dose back on today, and upped the MB7 dose to 50ml per day. I know this combination along with BP will get my nutrients back down based on prior trials above. Once back down, I will continue by cutting off the Nopox once again, and continue with the higher MB7 dose. I'm determined to find out if BP and bacteria replenishment can be a winning solution.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Following your MB7 experiment.

I stopped MB7 and NOPOX a long time ago and have not replaced that 2 month old GFO bag and my tank continues to maintain the low numbers. Kinda amazing given I have 30+ fish, but is it really the BP? There’s too many variables in the tank to really know. My last week was 5.2 NO3 0.04 PO4.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Well that worked. Maybe a little too well. The Nopox seemed to have woken up the bacteria. I will stop the Nopox and continue with the daily 50ml MB7 dose going forward. Just a little scary that my NO3 went down so much in just one day.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Following your MB7 experiment.

I stopped MB7 and NOPOX a long time ago and have not replaced that 2 month old GFO bag and my tank continues to maintain the low numbers. Kinda amazing given I have 30+ fish, but is it really the BP? There’s too many variables in the tank to really know. My last week was 5.2 NO3 0.04 PO4.

Sounds like you hit the sweet spot, good job.
This is exactly what I hope to get to some day.

 

[Saltees]

Well that worked. Maybe a little too well. The Nopox seemed to have woken up the bacteria. I will stop the Nopox and continue with the daily 50ml MB7 dose going forward. Just a little scary that my NO3 went down so much in just one day.

Well done!

I’m dosing 10ml of Dr Tim’s Waste Away (similar to MB7) day since 20 Dec. I still don’t see a drop in my [email protected] today, didn’t test for NO3 as my LFS just ran out of reagent. I’ll be increasing to 15ml of Waste Away instead to see if that drops the nutrients.

Your result is promising.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Well done!

I’m dosing 10ml of Dr Tim’s Waste Away (similar to MB7) day since 20 Dec. I still don’t see a drop in my [email protected] today, didn’t test for NO3 as my LFS just ran out of reagent. I’ll be increasing to 15ml of Waste Away instead to see if that drops the nutrients.

Your result is promising.

I think the MB7 was the main factor, and the Nopox just accelerated it. Reasoning is that when I turned off the Nopox the first time on Dec 17, nutrients continued to go down for about a week, then started right back up around Christmas time. Unless they continued to go down due to the residual Nopox in the system, which took a week to go away.

That is what I'm attempting to prove this time.

I just cut off the Nopox, but this time I am dosing 50ml MB7 per day instead of 20ml MB7. If the prior decline/ascent in nutrients was due to residual Nopox still in the system, I should see the same effect around Jan 12. If I don't see the same result, then I then know that bacteria depletion was the issue, and that my daily dose of MB7 should remain higher, somewhere in the 20-50ml per day range.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think the MB7 was the main factor, and the Nopox just accelerated it. Reasoning is that when I turned off the Nopox the first time on Dec 17, nutrients continued to go down for about a week, then started right back up around Christmas time. Unless they continued to go down due to the residual Nopox in the system, which took a week to go away.

That is what I'm attempting to prove this time.

I just cut off the Nopox, but this time I am dosing 50ml MB7 per day instead of 20ml MB7. If the prior decline/ascent in nutrients was due to residual Nopox still in the system, I should see the same effect around Jan 12. If I don't see the same result, then I then know that bacteria depletion was the issue, and that my daily dose of MB7 should remain higher, somewhere in the 20-50ml per day range.

I'm at a loss to understand why any aquarium needs a constant dose of bacteria unless you are actively trying to displace a pest from surfaces (such as dinos or cyano).

I cannot imagine a scenario in a reef tank where bacteria remain in short supply for extended periods while having plentiful foods and nutrients.

 

[Saltees]

I'm at a loss to understand why any aquarium needs a constant dose of bacteria unless you are actively trying to displace a pest from surfaces (such as dinos or cyano).

I cannot imagine a scenario in a reef tank where bacteria remain in short supply for extended periods while having plentiful foods and nutrients.

According to Dr Tim’s Waste Away, it’s recommended to “top up” the bacteria on a weekly basis to make up for those lost to skimming, UV, other filtration, etc. if that makes any sense to you?

On another note, I can’t seem to get the biopellets to work on PO4 @ over 0.9ppm and NO3 hovering at over 20ppm…maybe a little more bacteria may do the trick, I hope.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

I'm at a loss to understand why any aquarium needs a constant dose of bacteria unless you are actively trying to displace a pest from surfaces (such as dinos or cyano).

I cannot imagine a scenario in a reef tank where bacteria remain in short supply for extended periods while having plentiful foods and nutrients.

I'm just letting everyone know what's working for me.
I've heard many others dose MB7 on a regular schedule too.

 

[92Miata]

According to Dr Tim’s Waste Away, it’s recommended to “top up” the bacteria on a weekly basis to make up for those lost to skimming, UV, other filtration, etc. if that makes any sense to you?

On another note, I can’t seem to get the biopellets to work on PO4 @ over 0.9ppm and NO3 hovering at over 20ppm…maybe a little more bacteria may do the trick, I hope.

"According to the manufacturer, I should give them money on a regular basis"

People need to start viewing vendors and manufacturers critically. They have a fundamental conflict of interest.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

"According to the manufacturer, I should give them money on a regular basis"

People need to start viewing vendors and manufacturers critically. They have a fundamental conflict of interest.

That's true about any product sold to consumers, and not just reefing products. All manufacturers make claims. That is why I take all product claims at face value, and only start trusting the product if it starts working for me, like MB7.

I didn't believe Cheerios was "Heart Healthy" either, as they claim, but I started having it for breakfast a few years ago, and it made me feel less stressed and more cognizant in the morning. And my cholesterol creeped down as well. So now I enjoy a bowl every day.

I wouldn't know these things about MB7 and Cheerios, if I had not given it a try. Once I find that they work for me, I share my experience with others, as it may be helpful to them as well.

 

[Saltees]

"According to the manufacturer, I should give them money on a regular basis"

People need to start viewing vendors and manufacturers critically. They have a fundamental conflict of interest.

Rightfully so. I had good results with Dr Tim’s Waste Away and Refresh when I had (dirty) sand then. Therefore I went ahead and bought a 128oz/1gal bottle. Since I’m doing the biopellets, I might as well use it sparingly for seeding as per instructed by manufacturer and many reefers that were successful in doing so.

Insofar as biopellets in bringing the nutrients down holistically, I’ve yet to see any positives after 6 months.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Yes I agree with the last several post regarding the constant dose of bottlebac hence I stopped myself. My personal take away is that each product has it's own special combination of bact strands which when introduced should seed and populate. And may be boosted with carbon i.e vinegar/NoPox as it's given an additional food source. However all this is temporary as the individual tank will eventually balance out again when bact types complete/outcompete according to their population.

So I can add bact XYZ, but it may be overridden by the bact ABC at some point. Sure I can add more XYZ, but what's the point until I know for certain XYZ has a direct and desirable benefit for me. ..which I have no way of knowing.

This is the reason I dosed a bunch of different bacts and nopox to boost when I was trying to stabilize my tank after an upgrade and fallow that upset the balance. Only did it again briefly when I seeded the biopellets because I had some on hand. I may do a bac here and there in the future just for giggles, but I don't see myself a long term bact doser. Sorry OP for taking this down a bacteria discussion rabbit-hole when your discussion was with BPs. =)

You BP being the carbon food source should continue to feed the MB7 stains you introduced and any other strains already in your tank until it find the balance. Then that's it IMHO. Maybe your changes are a result of something else? Broken record here, but test error? FYI. I hit a PO4 0.0 off my hanna just last week. Knee-jerked to a Oh crap moment with images of dyno and mess flying through my head. I woooo-shhaaaaa'ed and took another test in an hour. I was at 0.04. <- Test error again. So I always retest an hour later if the readings deviate too much from the trend line.

 

[Saltees]

Sorry OP for taking this down a bacteria discussion rabbit-hole when your discussion was with BPs. =)

No worries, they are very much related BTW. If after another 3-6 months, the BP isn’t working for me, I might just go Sulfur Denitrator + GFO route, given my overwhelming fish load.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

According to Dr Tim’s Waste Away, it’s recommended to “top up” the bacteria on a weekly basis to make up for those lost to skimming, UV, other filtration, etc. if that makes any sense to you?

On another note, I can’t seem to get the biopellets to work on PO4 @ over 0.9ppm and NO3 hovering at over 20ppm…maybe a little more bacteria may do the trick, I hope.

Not really, no. Bacteria will multiply to fill any void.

FWIW, the bacteria in waste away may not be at all the species needed to metabolize the polymer in biopellets.

 

[92Miata]

Is there any reason you seem insistent on the waste-away and biopellets instead of just dosing carbon in a more controlled way? I've tried biopellets a couple of times and bounced off - and most of the people I know who've tried them had similar experiences to you. They seem to be really really slow to come online, and then seem to be inconsistent (probably due to the changes in surface area).

It has always seemed a bit like kalkwasser in the ATO to me - it works in a sense, but it's just a really suboptimal and inconsistent way to do it compared to just using a dosing pump and knowing exactly what's happening.

FWIW - there's way more involved here than just Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorus - and given that you're running multiple biological means of export (chaeto, biopellets, waste-away) and multiple means of chemical reduction - it's entirely possible that one of them is causing your tank to be limited on something (iron? Silicon? Who knows?) that the other ones need.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm just letting everyone know what's working for me.
I've heard many others dose MB7 on a regular schedule too.

I'm not doubting the success. The question is whether the success is because of the MB7, in spite of the MB7, or unrelated to MB7.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

I'm not doubting the success. The question is whether the success is because of the MB7, in spite of the MB7, or unrelated to MB7.

Could you kindly review my post from Dec 16 and let me know your thoughts? The only change was adding MB7, and I had a strong response. Do you think this is in spite of MB7, or unrelated to MB7? Maybe there's something I'm missing here and would appreciate your opinion.