Can I convert cyano to algae?

[Perpetual Novice]

I have a tank with consistently high nutrients. It’s not neglected but I do minimal maintenance and for the last while there has been mild amount of cyano persisting around the tank. No algae is growing. I know cyano and algae both thrive on high nutrients or poor water parameters but I’m not sure what determines whether cyano or algae blooms as a result. I actually want to grow some algae because I have several hungry tangs that would definitely appreciate it and keep it in check.

if I ad phosphorus will that promote algae to outcompete the cyano? Is there a way to influence whether cyano or algae blooms?

 

[Lasse]

This is the $ 10 000 question. IMO - cyanobacteria mats will normally thrive when some of the macro nutrients are zeroed and/or some of the micro nutrients are zeroed. the way I usually defeat them is to be sure to have readable PO4 and NO3 concentrations and constantly disturbing the mat formation - at least every evening.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Katrina71]

My son's tank had an ongoing cyano issue. Same parameters as my tank. We added 4 ninja star snails and @hollback's pods...gone. We had tried upping the flow to no avail in that tank too. Haven't had an issue since.

 

[JP Reef]

If cyano dies it will release the phosphates it stores. You could use chemi-clean or similar and once it dies it should release phosphates. This will then get used by other algae in the tank. Also, check under the cyano. Last time I had some it seemed to like growing over some other algae.

 

[Dom]

Question: What if you relocated the Cyano mat formations from the display tank to the refugium (if you have one)?

Much in the same way that Chaetomorpha consumes nutrients to prevent algae growth in the display, will promoting the growth of Cyano in the refugium do the same?

 

[Lasse]

Question: What if you relocated the Cyano mat formations from the display tank to the refugium (if you have one)?

Much in the same way that Chaetomorpha consumes nutrients to prevent algae growth in the display, will promoting the growth of Cyano in the refugium do the same?

It depends on the cyano bacteria - many of them have one or another trick to fixate N (in the form of NH3/NH4) from N2 gas. It means that you will have one more N input to the tank - sometimes good - sometimes bad.

I prefer not to use chemicals when defeating cyano.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ScottR]

Chemiclean will kill the cyano. But cyano has most likely killed out all forms of life on your rock. Rebuilding begins here. After I used chemiclean to kill cyano, dinos jumped in. And my tank is high nutrients. Cyano took care of my coralline and other beneficial bacteria and algae. Roads work ahead.....

 

[LadyMac]

So if I disturb the cyano daily, will that aid in it leaving? My tank has decent flow, but it’s still rather new. I try to pull it off the rocks and push the sand daily. I’ll lift out what I can but it seems to come back pretty consistently.

 

[Lasse]

Normally I do two things -

1) Rise NO2 to around 2-4 ppm, rise PO4 to around 0.1 ppm If it is already over these figures - i let it be
2) rinse every part I can - sand with stirring - rocks with blowing a stream of water om it - every day at the evening when the light have start to dim

Last time I had problem I´m also decrease my light intensity. I use the adaption mode on my light fixture - put it on 50 % decrease day 1 and no decrease day 21

Sincerely lasse

 

[Dan_P]

I have a tank with consistently high nutrients. It’s not neglected but I do minimal maintenance and for the last while there has been mild amount of cyano persisting around the tank. No algae is growing. I know cyano and algae both thrive on high nutrients or poor water parameters but I’m not sure what determines whether cyano or algae blooms as a result. I actually want to grow some algae because I have several hungry tangs that would definitely appreciate it and keep it in check.

if I ad phosphorus will that promote algae to outcompete the cyano? Is there a way to influence whether cyano or algae blooms?

I have a long winded answer for you. My comments are based on cyanobacteria nutrition studies from lab research and much reading that I and @taricha have done this past year.

Nitrate and phosphate concentrations are poor predictors of nuisance cyanobacteria growth in the aquarium. Cyanobacteria mats and films can be observed in aquaria under all possible combination of nitrate and phosphate concentrations. When cultured outside the aquarium, cyanobacteria films and mats form only under high concentrations of both. There still could be a correlation (although poor) between cyanobacteria growth and nitrate and phosphate levels without there being a cause-and-effect relationship. How might this paradox explained?

The red slime that we find so disturbing is a very dense colony of cyanobacteria and many, many other organisms. There is probably more than one species of cyanobacteria based on morphology of the filaments, but one species seems to dominate the mat (Oscillatoria or Spirulina). This much life, crammed in so little space requires a high concentration of food. A tenet to keep in mind is “high density growth needs high densities of nutrients” (In addition to waste removal and sufficient light for the photosynthetic organisms in the mat). The problem in explaining this type of growth is that aquarium water levels of nitrate and phosphate cannot support such high densities of organisms. In addition, with the introduction of the NDOC test by TRITON, we are learning that dissolved organic carbon levels in reef aquaria do not seem to be high either. Another tenet, “when considering benthic organism nutrition, focus on what is happening on the surface”, begins to unwind the paradox of nuisance cyanobacteria growth.

The term “surface” includes substrate surfaces, rock sufaces, glass surfaces, plumbing surfaces, alga surfaces, and the mat surface itself. These are the places that high density growth occurs and here is where the high level of nutrients can occur. The aquarium surface is a very large slimy and sticky structure. It has a very large surface area but a extremely shallow depth, let’s say much less than a 1 mm deep. This structure is a home to a large and very diverse collection of organisms. It is fed by a constant snowfall of particulate organic carbon. If water flow is slow In a particular locale, accumulation of particulate matter builds up large amounts and life can flourish exceptionally well. It is this mechanism that concentrates nutrients and leads to vigorous growth of cyanobacteria. Since cyanobacteria may not be able to use this complex accumulation of organic matter to supply its high nutritional demand, there is one more fact that helps explain how cyanobacteria can take advantage of particulate organic carbon, heterotrophic aerobic bacteria.

Even cyanobacteria benefit from bacteria. Recent studies show that heterotrophic bacteria are closely associated with cyanobacteria. This apparent commensal relationship can explain how cyanobacteria can take advantage of complex organic carbon. The heterotrophic bacteria upon digestion of the particulate matter eliminates excess nitrogen and phosphorous compounds that the cyanobacteria can assimilate, while the cyanobacteria repay the debt by exuding excess organic carbon compounds from photosynthesis In addition to oxygen.

In summary, nuisance cyanobacteria growth is likely fueled by organic matter accumulation. Elevated nitrate and phosphate levels reflect the heterotrophic bacteria digestion of organic waste IF the amount is large enough, otherwise high local levels of waste are sufficient to fuel cyanobacteria growth without there being enough to raise the system’s nitrate and phosphate levels. How does this apply to your question

“if I ad phosphorus will that promote algae to outcompete the cyano? Is there a way to influence whether cyano or algae blooms?”

With the perspective that I outlined above, I would suggest that algae and cyanobacteria are not competitors for nutrients. Adding PO4 could certainly benefit macro alga growth, but what nutrients that the alga assimilates will not deprive the cyanobacteria film.

 

[Dom]

I prefer not to use chemicals when defeating cyano.

Sincerely Lasse

I agree with this. I use chemicals as a last resort to correcting issues. When you have things going on, such as Cyano, I believe the fix lies in correcting the imbalance.

Chemiclean will resolve the Cyano issue. But it isn't a "set it and forget it" solution. You must be careful as oxygen depletion from its use needs to be addressed, which is why I think running an air stone is a good idea during treatment. Also, have a 40% water change ready to go immediately upon completion of treatment.

 

[Lasse]

I have a long winded answer for you. My comments are based on cyanobacteria nutrition studies from lab research and much reading that I and @taricha have done this past year.

Nitrate and phosphate concentrations are poor predictors of nuisance cyanobacteria growth in the aquarium. Cyanobacteria mats and films can be observed in aquaria under all possible combination of nitrate and phosphate concentrations. When cultured outside the aquarium, cyanobacteria films and mats form only under high concentrations of both. There still could be a correlation (although poor) between cyanobacteria growth and nitrate and phosphate levels without there being a cause-and-effect relationship. How might this paradox explained?

The red slime that we find so disturbing is a very dense colony of cyanobacteria and many, many other organisms. There is probably more than one species of cyanobacteria based on morphology of the filaments, but one species seems to dominate the mat (Oscillatoria or Spirulina). This much life, crammed in so little space requires a high concentration of food. A tenet to keep in mind is “high density growth needs high densities of nutrients” (In addition to waste removal and sufficient light for the photosynthetic organisms in the mat). The problem in explaining this type of growth is that aquarium water levels of nitrate and phosphate cannot support such high densities of organisms. In addition, with the introduction of the NDOC test by TRITON, we are learning that dissolved organic carbon levels in reef aquaria do not seem to be high either. Another tenet, “when considering benthic organism nutrition, focus on what is happening on the surface”, begins to unwind the paradox of nuisance cyanobacteria growth.

The term “surface” includes substrate surfaces, rock sufaces, glass surfaces, plumbing surfaces, alga surfaces, and the mat surface itself. These are the places that high density growth occurs and here is where the high level of nutrients can occur. The aquarium surface is a very large slimy and sticky structure. It has a very large surface area but a extremely shallow depth, let’s say much less than a 1 mm deep. This structure is a home to a large and very diverse collection of organisms. It is fed by a constant snowfall of particulate organic carbon. If water flow is slow In a particular locale, accumulation of particulate matter builds up large amounts and life can flourish exceptionally well. It is this mechanism that concentrates nutrients and leads to vigorous growth of cyanobacteria. Since cyanobacteria may not be able to use this complex accumulation of organic matter to supply its high nutritional demand, there is one more fact that helps explain how cyanobacteria can take advantage of particulate organic carbon, heterotrophic aerobic bacteria.

Even cyanobacteria benefit from bacteria. Recent studies show that heterotrophic bacteria are closely associated with cyanobacteria. This apparent commensal relationship can explain how cyanobacteria can take advantage of complex organic carbon. The heterotrophic bacteria upon digestion of the particulate matter eliminates excess nitrogen and phosphorous compounds that the cyanobacteria can assimilate, while the cyanobacteria repay the debt by exuding excess organic carbon compounds from photosynthesis In addition to oxygen.

In summary, nuisance cyanobacteria growth is likely fueled by organic matter accumulation. Elevated nitrate and phosphate levels reflect the heterotrophic bacteria digestion of organic waste IF the amount is large enough, otherwise high local levels of waste are sufficient to fuel cyanobacteria growth without there being enough to raise the system’s nitrate and phosphate levels. How does this apply to your question

“if I ad phosphorus will that promote algae to outcompete the cyano? Is there a way to influence whether cyano or algae blooms?”

With the perspective that I outlined above, I would suggest that algae and cyanobacteria are not competitors for nutrients. Adding PO4 could certainly benefit macro alga growth, but what nutrients that the alga assimilates will not deprive the cyanobacteria film.

This much inline with my thoughts - It is the forming of the mats that is the problems. And its true that in maybe 10 % of the cyano outbreak I have seen have taken place in water with higher dissolved inorganic PO4 and NO3 levels. But must of the cases I have seen is in zero or very low nutrients levels. My thought is that it is mostly lack of phosphorous that is the key factor here.

Let me try to explain how I think - @Dan_P is mostly the same things that you have mentioned in your excellent post but my thought maybe can give some more ideas or it is only a swedes fantasies

The cyanobacteria from the family oscillatoria will alvays be present in our aquarium. Normally they travel around like small threads that float around and propagate. They use photosynthesis and inorganic PO4 from the water column. The nitrogen source is probably NH3/NH4 and NO3 . probably they need iron too

Suppose now that one of these nutrient sources in the water column will be zeroed or in very low concentrations, Normal algae start to cyst and stop grow but the oscillatoria have other tricks for surviving (remember - this is probably the one of the oldest and most important organism we have) One is that they suddenly can start to form mats of mostly carbohydrates. This mats will support organic carbon to heterotrophic bacteria that can accelerate the breakdown of organic matter under the mats - and free P - in form of PO4 - to the cyanobacteria and also NH3/NH4 as nitrogen source. It is also important to stress that´s is probably more mechanisms (or tricks) involved - all with the goal to secure the supply of inorganic PO4 for the photosynthesis (and in some way inorganic NH3/NH4)

As we know - Cyanobacteria mats often forms in newly started aquarium - before any organic load has been build up in the sand or in the stones. We know also that NO3 levels of around 2 ppm often means that there will be no mats formed and that a addition of NO3 up to around 2 ppm and time often solve the cyano mat problem.

We also know that the mats often will continue to develop even if we suck up the organic waste below the mats.

However - i do not think that NO3 is very much involved in the fight for N to the photosynthesis but I have an other thinkable pathway for NO3 in a reef aquarium.

Every one here have probably used GFO or Al media with the goal to absorb PO4. It is a well known fact that many metals (including Ca and Mg) under the right conditions form bounded metal-PO4 complex. This happens everywhere in sediments around the world. However - there is on major compound that easily break this bonds and release inorganic PO4 again - this compound is hydrogen sulphide. It will be produced by anaerobic bacteria that use sulfur compounds as electron acceptor during anaerobic respiration. However - this will not happens if enough NO3 is present in the water column - If so - the type of anaerobic bacteria that use NO3 as an acceptor will dominate. It first when NO3 comes close to zero.

This means that if NO3 has enough concentration - no production of hydrogen sulphide and- if any - low release of PO4 from metal-PO4 complex. It means - that pathway for gaining PO4 is more or less closed.

I see it this way - a dip in PO4 level (and/or usable NH3/NH4 concentrations or any other important micro nutrient) trig the mat formation. When this is done - you will have a self playing piano according phosphorus if there is any organic sources or inorganic sources (metal-PO4 compounds)

Now a long fight will start in order to cut of the supply of P below the mats.

The method I use concentrate on a couple of things. Destroy the mats - take away the good environment for the cyanobacteria. Be sure that you have enough of NO3 in the water column in order to hinder production of hydrogen sulphide. Maybe take down light intensity in order to slow down the photosynthesis (the energy sources for the forming of the hydrocarbons in the slimy mats)



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Perpetual Novice]

This much inline with my thoughts - It is the forming of the mats that is the problems. And its true that in maybe 10 % of the cyano outbreak I have seen have taken place in water with higher dissolved inorganic PO4 and NO3 levels. But must of the cases I have seen is in zero or very low nutrients levels. My thought is that it is mostly lack of phosphorous that is the key factor here.

Let me try to explain how I think - @Dan_P is mostly the same things that you have mentioned in your excellent post but my thought maybe can give some more ideas or it is only a swedes fantasies

The cyanobacteria from the family oscillatoria will alvays be present in our aquarium. Normally they travel around like small threads that float around and propagate. They use photosynthesis and inorganic PO4 from the water column. The nitrogen source is probably NH3/NH4 and NO3 . probably they need iron too

Suppose now that one of these nutrient sources in the water column will be zeroed or in very low concentrations, Normal algae start to cyst and stop grow but the oscillatoria have other tricks for surviving (remember - this is probably the one of the oldest and most important organism we have) One is that they suddenly can start to form mats of mostly carbohydrates. This mats will support organic carbon to heterotrophic bacteria that can accelerate the breakdown of organic matter under the mats - and free P - in form of PO4 - to the cyanobacteria and also NH3/NH4 as nitrogen source. It is also important to stress that´s is probably more mechanisms (or tricks) involved - all with the goal to secure the supply of inorganic PO4 for the photosynthesis (and in some way inorganic NH3/NH4)

As we know - Cyanobacteria mats often forms in newly started aquarium - before any organic load has been build up in the sand or in the stones. We know also that NO3 levels of around 2 ppm often means that there will be no mats formed and that a addition of NO3 up to around 2 ppm and time often solve the cyano mat problem.

We also know that the mats often will continue to develop even if we suck up the organic waste below the mats.

However - i do not think that NO3 is very much involved in the fight for N to the photosynthesis but I have an other thinkable pathway for NO3 in a reef aquarium.

Every one here have probably used GFO or Al media with the goal to absorb PO4. It is a well known fact that many metals (including Ca and Mg) under the right conditions form bounded metal-PO4 complex. This happens everywhere in sediments around the world. However - there is on major compound that easily break this bonds and release inorganic PO4 again - this compound is hydrogen sulphide. It will be produced by anaerobic bacteria that use sulfur compounds as electron acceptor during anaerobic respiration. However - this will not happens if enough NO3 is present in the water column - If so - the type of anaerobic bacteria that use NO3 as an acceptor will dominate. It first when NO3 comes close to zero.

This means that if NO3 has enough concentration - no production of hydrogen sulphide and- if any - low release of PO4 from metal-PO4 complex. It means - that pathway for gaining PO4 is more or less closed.

I see it this way - a dip in PO4 level (and/or usable NH3/NH4 concentrations or any other important micro nutrient) trig the mat formation. When this is done - you will have a self playing piano according phosphorus if there is any organic sources or inorganic sources (metal-PO4 compounds)

Now a long fight will start in order to cut of the supply of P below the mats.

The method I use concentrate on a couple of things. Destroy the mats - take away the good environment for the cyanobacteria. Be sure that you have enough of NO3 in the water column in order to hinder production of hydrogen sulphide. Maybe take down light intensity in order to slow down the photosynthesis (the energy sources for the forming of the hydrocarbons in the slimy mats)



Sincerely Lasse

So you’re saying I should feed my tank more and turn off my skimmers? Ahahah.
But more seriously it sounds like I should avoid using media that removes phosphates and wait longer between water changes. Am I understanding right?

also what color spectrum does the cyano primarily use. I would rather avoid dimming the lights altogether if I can just cut out the relevant spectrum.

 

[WVNed]

I don't know if this will help but it happened recently.
I have 3 tanks on one sump. I had cyano in only 2 of the 3 tanks.
Cyano to algae? Presto Chango
tank 1 10-27

it was really bad

11-23

Tank 2

Tank 3 with tank 1. You can see the difference 10-26 The large tank had some mats in the back corners
I was stirring to break up ocasionally.

I used Chemiclean, increased flow and adjusted the light downward on the 2 tanks. At the same time I had a huge die off of the large mass of green macro algae which dissolved into the system. This put my nitrates to 50 and phosphates to 0.2. I started Nopox and they are down to .1 and 25.
I did a 40 gallon water change after the Chemiclean on a 400 gallon system by letting the skimmer drain to a 5 gallon bucket and adding NSW back as it came out. You plug a pump into your ATO system that is in the NSW water change vat instead of the RODI reservoir.

One or all of those things together worked.
Which one beats the heck out of me.

I don't see any traces of cyano anywhere now.

the big pods in a herd

 

[Dan_P]

This much inline with my thoughts - It is the forming of the mats that is the problems. And its true that in maybe 10 % of the cyano outbreak I have seen have taken place in water with higher dissolved inorganic PO4 and NO3 levels. But must of the cases I have seen is in zero or very low nutrients levels. My thought is that it is mostly lack of phosphorous that is the key factor here.

Let me try to explain how I think - @Dan_P is mostly the same things that you have mentioned in your excellent post but my thought maybe can give some more ideas or it is only a swedes fantasies

The cyanobacteria from the family oscillatoria will alvays be present in our aquarium. Normally they travel around like small threads that float around and propagate. They use photosynthesis and inorganic PO4 from the water column. The nitrogen source is probably NH3/NH4 and NO3 . probably they need iron too

Suppose now that one of these nutrient sources in the water column will be zeroed or in very low concentrations, Normal algae start to cyst and stop grow but the oscillatoria have other tricks for surviving (remember - this is probably the one of the oldest and most important organism we have) One is that they suddenly can start to form mats of mostly carbohydrates. This mats will support organic carbon to heterotrophic bacteria that can accelerate the breakdown of organic matter under the mats - and free P - in form of PO4 - to the cyanobacteria and also NH3/NH4 as nitrogen source. It is also important to stress that´s is probably more mechanisms (or tricks) involved - all with the goal to secure the supply of inorganic PO4 for the photosynthesis (and in some way inorganic NH3/NH4)

As we know - Cyanobacteria mats often forms in newly started aquarium - before any organic load has been build up in the sand or in the stones. We know also that NO3 levels of around 2 ppm often means that there will be no mats formed and that a addition of NO3 up to around 2 ppm and time often solve the cyano mat problem.

We also know that the mats often will continue to develop even if we suck up the organic waste below the mats.

However - i do not think that NO3 is very much involved in the fight for N to the photosynthesis but I have an other thinkable pathway for NO3 in a reef aquarium.

Every one here have probably used GFO or Al media with the goal to absorb PO4. It is a well known fact that many metals (including Ca and Mg) under the right conditions form bounded metal-PO4 complex. This happens everywhere in sediments around the world. However - there is on major compound that easily break this bonds and release inorganic PO4 again - this compound is hydrogen sulphide. It will be produced by anaerobic bacteria that use sulfur compounds as electron acceptor during anaerobic respiration. However - this will not happens if enough NO3 is present in the water column - If so - the type of anaerobic bacteria that use NO3 as an acceptor will dominate. It first when NO3 comes close to zero.

This means that if NO3 has enough concentration - no production of hydrogen sulphide and- if any - low release of PO4 from metal-PO4 complex. It means - that pathway for gaining PO4 is more or less closed.

I see it this way - a dip in PO4 level (and/or usable NH3/NH4 concentrations or any other important micro nutrient) trig the mat formation. When this is done - you will have a self playing piano according phosphorus if there is any organic sources or inorganic sources (metal-PO4 compounds)

Now a long fight will start in order to cut of the supply of P below the mats.

The method I use concentrate on a couple of things. Destroy the mats - take away the good environment for the cyanobacteria. Be sure that you have enough of NO3 in the water column in order to hinder production of hydrogen sulphide. Maybe take down light intensity in order to slow down the photosynthesis (the energy sources for the forming of the hydrocarbons in the slimy mats)



Sincerely Lasse

Hi @Lasse You have fascinating ideas about cyanobacteria Comparing our latest findings to your ideas is part of the standard data work up.

My experiments have been confined to benthic filamentous cyanobacteria, those cyanobacteria that live on and readily stick to surfaces. These organisms can swarm all over a surface but are invisible until the density of the filaments reaches a level that is sufficient to color the surface. I agree with you, cyanobacteria are probably always in our aquaria. The Oscillatoria type is of particular interest because it has the ability to form quite a thick and large film or mat. Other cyanobacteria can form thick films and mats, but I have to wonder whether the troublemakers are limited to a few species, especially Oscillatoria and Spirulina. I would add that I think that they are normally found on surfaces not floating around, though I have not done any kind of survey to compare the pelagic and benthic numbers.

As for mat forming behavior, that is proving to be an interesting study. Mats represent a high density ecosystem and a high density of biomass usually means a high level of available food. To this point, we have not been able to produce mats without high levels of nitrate and phosphate, or in cases with low nitrate and phosphate levels, high organic carbon levels. We know that cyanobacteria films lose their color, that is, they bleach, when nitrogen becomes scarce. And the film does not have to be very thick to quickly deplete local nutrients. At this point in our studies, I would say that when you see a deep red mat, you are seeing a well fed ecosystem.

I guess that leaves us to debate the mechanism by which the cyanobacteria acquires so much food. Determining this would mean never developing cyanobacteria films. Because cyanobacteria can form thick films and mats on many different surfaces, there might be one mechanism that has the widest application in explaining mat formation, organic carbon accumulation. Using your example

“Suppose now that one of these nutrient sources in the water column will be zeroed or in very low concentrations, Normal algae start to cyst and stop grow but the oscillatoria have other tricks for surviving”

The death of micro and macro alga is an example of organic carbon accumulation and can be sufficient to fuel cyanobacteria growth. There are no cyanobacteria-specific strategies or tricks here, only the good fortune of having commensal heterotrophic bacteria that start providing huge amounts of nutrients for cyanobacteria mat formation. Food must come first, then mat formation. Take away the food or kill the heterotrophic bacteria and the cyanobacteria mat disperses.

Lasse, thanks again for your thoughts and comments. Maybe in a couple months we will have some data to discuss.

Dan

 

[Lasse]

IMO - for the moment - the food is always there for them in on or another form. The question is however - why they suddenly change strategy from relay on dissolved inorganic nutrients to relay on methods that need more input of energy - at least initially.

IMO - in an initial effort - the constructions of the mats needs extra energy because they partly consists of carbohydrates that will be secreted outside the cell. This in contrast with the well functional ecosystem when the mats already is there. Even if cyano bacteria is well adapted - they can´t think and make up plans for surviving or optimal growth. Forming mats will initially need a costly energy input. Biological system normally prefer the rule - maximal gain of minimal energy input. however - certain organisms need to have triggers that overrule that principles if its surviving need it. a good example is the water hyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes). as long as it is nutrients (read PO4) in the water - they use vegative propagation. If inorganic nutrients start to be low or absent - the do a energy costly production of gametes and start to flowering. They will normally not start the production of gametes and flowers if not the inorganic nutrients running low.

W hat I try to stress is that IMO - the solution for us is know the triggers for mat formation - if we know them - we can use different methods to hinder the first formation. When the mat formation already is done - you have a self playing piano.

Probably - there can be different triggers and it could also be triggers in micro environment as well. I do not believe that oscillatoria is a pure planktonic organism but I have seen it in free water samples and as the name indicate - it moves. If this cyanobacteria gathering together in company with organic matter in holes and cavities - i can see a possibility for a nutrient limited micro environment that can function as starting point for the mat formation. Also - the probability for this will be higher if the water already is low in nutrients (read mostly inorganic phosphate)

Now when my system have run a prolonged period with low phosphate - i can see just this - very local spots there it is dead tissue or traps for organic matter covered with a red mat.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

IMO - for the moment - the food is always there for them in on or another form. The question is however - why they suddenly change strategy from relay on dissolved inorganic nutrients to relay on methods that need more input of energy - at least initially.

IMO - in an initial effort - the constructions of the mats needs extra energy because they partly consists of carbohydrates that will be secreted outside the cell. This in contrast with the well functional ecosystem when the mats already is there. Even if cyano bacteria is well adapted - they can´t think and make up plans for surviving or optimal growth. Forming mats will initially need a costly energy input. Biological system normally prefer the rule - maximal gain of minimal energy input. however - certain organisms need to have triggers that overrule that principles if its surviving need it. a good example is the water hyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes). as long as it is nutrients (read PO4) in the water - they use vegative propagation. If inorganic nutrients start to be low or absent - the do a energy costly production of gametes and start to flowering. They will normally not start the production of gametes and flowers if not the inorganic nutrients running low.

W hat I try to stress is that IMO - the solution for us is know the triggers for mat formation - if we know them - we can use different methods to hinder the first formation. When the mat formation already is done - you have a self playing piano.

Probably - there can be different triggers and it could also be triggers in micro environment as well. I do not believe that oscillatoria is a pure planktonic organism but I have seen it in free water samples and as the name indicate - it moves. If this cyanobacteria gathering together in company with organic matter in holes and cavities - i can see a possibility for a nutrient limited micro environment that can function as starting point for the mat formation. Also - the probability for this will be higher if the water already is low in nutrients (read mostly inorganic phosphate)

Now when my system have run a prolonged period with low phosphate - i can see just this - very local spots there it is dead tissue or traps for organic matter covered with a red mat.

Sincerely Lasse

The “self-playing piano“ mechanism might be the commensal heterotrophic bacteria, though it would be difficult to test. I wonder if ChemiClean works by killing the commensal bacteria associated with cyanobacteria?

The notion that cyanobacteria are triggered or turned into mat forming organisms might need to be rethought or rephrased. Cyanobacteria filament densities lie on a continuum that is determined by the amount of food, light, CO2 and waste removal. As cyanobacteria grow in length and number, and depending on conditions, they either stay in place to produce a visible film, or disperse to optimize living conditions and remain invisible to the aquarist. If the filaments in a film continue to grow and not move away, this can only mean light, CO2, N, P, and waste removal are adequate for such high crowding. I guess the idea that cyanobacteria films are triggered comes from the fact that cyanobacteria are only noticed during exponential growth, when it is too late to easily change conditions to discourage the rapid spread of red slime.

I hypothesize that if the local accumulation of organic matter could be stopped and reversed, no cyanobacteria mats would ever form. Cyanobacteria filaments would still be there but in reduced numbers. If we could visualize organic carbon build up, testing my hypothesis would be easy. We are looking into simple ways to assess organic matter build up in substrate. The probability of success is low but we might get lucky. Having data would be a big help In understanding mat formation.

i have a feeling that if we could discuss this over a beer, the problem of cyanobacteria films would be solved.

Dan

 

[Lasse]

The “self-playing piano“ mechanism might be the commensal heterotrophic bacteria, though it would be difficult to test. I wonder if ChemiClean works by killing the commensal bacteria associated with cyanobacteria?

My thoughts for the moment are that the self playing piano include a part of overproduction of energy that can result in continuous production of the carbohydrate rich slime. Forming the mats may include a larger area for catching photons

The notion that cyanobacteria are triggered or turned into mat forming organisms might need to be rethought or rephrased. Cyanobacteria filament densities lie on a continuum that is determined by the amount of food, light, CO2 and waste removal.

All ecosystem and organism tend to work against the lowest energy demand and energy costs as possible in the given moment. The production of external carbohydrate rich slime can´t (IMO) be the normal situation because in that situation - it is only needed 1 filament of oscillatoria, organic carbon traps or/and metal-PO4 compounds and time in order to start a buildup of the mats. IME - that´s not what´s happen - I have had systems without removing (by my hands) any organic buildups at all running for years without any outbreaks of cyano bacteria but I can guarantee you that if I let these system goes down to nearly zero in PO4 (or NO3) - I get formation of the mats - especially if I combine this with high DOC and amino acid concentrations (read - If I add these compounds). You maybe not can recreate this situation in vitro in a petri dish. But i have seen this in situ too many times that I can´t exclude a relationship with low nutritional values and cyanobacteria mat formation

I hypothesize that if the local accumulation of organic matter could be stopped and reversed, no cyanobacteria mats would ever form.

This is one way to stop some situations with mat formation IMO but for me it is like cure the chickenpox by grinding away the cups themselves. Very often when starting a new aquarium with new sand and "dead" stones - you get mat formation in a week or two - even if you rinsed and treated the sand and stones. When I start to add a single NO3 dose (up to 2 ppm) after a week after the start - i have got no mat formation whatever in the start. The last start - I get - but t I did not add any NO3 to that aquarium before the mat formation. In aquarium with a good balance - I never get local cyanobacteria mats on dying or injured corals - if i have ultra low nutrient concentration in the water I do get this.

Cyanobacteria filaments would still be there but in reduced numbers. If we could visualize organic carbon build up, testing my hypothesis would be easy. We are looking into simple ways to assess organic matter build up in substrate. The probability of success is low but we might get lucky. Having data would be a big help In understanding mat formation.

I think we have data in order to form a hypothesis but to confirm that with cause - outcome in vitro experiments will be an enormous task.

i have a feeling that if we could discuss this over a beer, the problem of cyanobacteria films would be solved.

Or come over for a Swedish "Fika" - I agree totally

I remember once when I during more than 3 months try to convince a contractor how we should handle a single but important three-way valve in order to solve a problem - no success - however one day - we sat down around the coffee table and took a "fika" (the Swedish variant of taking a beer and solve everything). in that discussion - I probably say one word that make him understand my standpoint totally and he change his mind and we get the permit to do the changes I want. I still not know which word but suddenly we play on the same part of the field

This is a complex ecosystem problem and have probably both multiple explanations and and solutions in different ecosystem levels - all input of experiences is welcomed IMO.

Both I and you two (and for certain many others) try to lay a puzzle and I feel that we at the moment only lack a few pieces (or need to turn on the pieces we already have in order to get them in the right position) but no one of us know exactly what part that is needed for the solution of this Gordian knot.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

My thoughts for the moment are that the self playing piano include a part of overproduction of energy that can result in continuous production of the carbohydrate rich slime. Forming the mats may include a larger area for catching photons


All ecosystem and organism tend to work against the lowest energy demand and energy costs as possible in the given moment. The production of external carbohydrate rich slime can´t (IMO) be the normal situation because in that situation - it is only needed 1 filament of oscillatoria, organic carbon traps or/and metal-PO4 compounds and time in order to start a buildup of the mats. IME - that´s not what´s happen - I have had systems without removing (by my hands) any organic buildups at all running for years without any outbreaks of cyano bacteria but I can guarantee you that if I let these system goes down to nearly zero in PO4 (or NO3) - I get formation of the mats - especially if I combine this with high DOC and amino acid concentrations (read - If I add these compounds). You maybe not can recreate this situation in vitro in a petri dish. But i have seen this in situ too many times that I can´t exclude a relationship with low nutritional values and cyanobacteria mat formation




This is one way to stop some situations with mat formation IMO but for me it is like cure the chickenpox by grinding away the cups themselves. Very often when starting a new aquarium with new sand and "dead" stones - you get mat formation in a week or two - even if you rinsed and treated the sand and stones. When I start to add a single NO3 dose (up to 2 ppm) after a week after the start - i have got no mat formation whatever in the start. The last start - I get - but t I did not add any NO3 to that aquarium before the mat formation. In aquarium with a good balance - I never get local cyanobacteria mats on dying or injured corals - if i have ultra low nutrient concentration in the water I do get this.



I think we have data in order to form a hypothesis but to confirm that with cause - outcome in vitro experiments will be an enormous task.



Or come over for a Swedish "Fika" - I agree totally

I remember once when I during more than 3 months try to convince a contractor how we should handle a single but important three-way valve in order to solve a problem - no success - however one day - we sat down around the coffee table and took a "fika" (the Swedish variant of taking a beer and solve everything). in that discussion - I probably say one word that make him understand my standpoint totally and he change his mind and we get the permit to do the changes I want. I still not know which word but suddenly we play on the same part of the field

This is a complex ecosystem problem and have probably both multiple explanations and and solutions in different ecosystem levels - all input of experiences is welcomed IMO.

Both I and you two (and for certain many others) try to lay a puzzle and I feel that we at the moment only lack a few pieces (or need to turn on the pieces we already have in order to get them in the right position) but no one of us know exactly what part that is needed for the solution of this Gordian knot.

Sincerely Lasse

i will try to find more pieces to the cyanobacteria mat puzzle and also look for Fika over here.

 

[Dan_P]

All ecosystem and organism tend to work against the lowest energy demand and energy costs as possible in the given moment. The production of external carbohydrate rich slime can´t (IMO) be the normal situation because in that situation - it is only needed 1 filament of oscillatoria, organic carbon traps or/and metal-PO4 compounds and time in order to start a buildup of the mats. IME - that´s not what´s happen - I have had systems without removing (by my hands) any organic buildups at all running for years without any outbreaks of cyano bacteria but I can guarantee you that if I let these system goes down to nearly zero in PO4 (or NO3) - I get formation of the mats - especially if I combine this with high DOC and amino acid concentrations (read - If I add these compounds). You maybe not can recreate this situation in vitro in a petri dish. But i have seen this in situ too many times that I can´t exclude a relationship with low nutritional values and cyanobacteria mat formation

Good point about in vitro observations. Always a concern of mine.

I have started to look at organics + nitrate. I don’t have enough data to discuss but I have seen a big difference in what organisms grow with organics+nitrate than I do with either nitrate or organics alone. In a few months I hope to have more data

This is one way to stop some situations with mat formation IMO but for me it is like cure the chickenpox by grinding away the cups themselves. Very often when starting a new aquarium with new sand and "dead" stones - you get mat formation in a week or two - even if you rinsed and treated the sand and stones. When I start to add a single NO3 dose (up to 2 ppm) after a week after the start - i have got no mat formation whatever in the start. The last start - I get - but t I did not add any NO3 to that aquarium before the mat formation. In aquarium with a good balance - I never get local cyanobacteria mats on dying or injured corals - if i have ultra low nutrient concentration in the water I do get this.

I don’t know what is going here but it is the type of observation that will help in experiment design.

Dan