Can I keep a mandarin in a 32 gallon?

[va_ill]

I've kept a mandarin in my 30L before I had to break it down. You just have to make sure you get one that will eat frozen and doesn't rely on copepods.. Get a Biota.

 

[Rugops]

Ah, the good old Mandarin debate. No matter how often it is rehashed, the age old "huge tank" myth just refuses to die.

A 32 Gallon is perfectly fine, and a single Mandarin can be kept in a system as small as 10 Gallons with proper planning and preparation.

People grossly underestimate the sheer quantity of microfauna that reef tanks are actually capable of generating and supporting. With the proper nutrient loads and adequate shelter we aren't talking about just a few thousand pods, we're talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of copepods, ostracods, worms and other assorted tiny invertebrates, all which make up parts of a Mandarin Dragonets diet. Though it is worth noting that these are NOT population densities you will find in a Ultra-Low Nutrient system.

That said, I do agree wholeheartedly with a hands-off approach to keeping Mandarins being unethical. Supportive feeding should always be a part of the strategy.

However, I will also recognize that my personal experiences are entirely based on systems set up with 100% live rock, and that it may not translate at all to systems set up with mostly, or entirely, dry rock. Obviously a 100% dry-dock tank is not going to have the same biodiversity, and will be entirely reliant on introduction and establishment of commercially available copepod cultures.

I agree with this.

 

[Uncle99]

What is your tank size out of curiosity.

180, 50 sump, 50 fuge, so 280 volume, now 3 years old.

He is the only exclusive pod eater in the tank.

 

[Uncle99]

I’m not a subscriber to the large volume requirement for this fish. It’s just a matter of food availability.
I kept one in a 20g, but again, was the only exclusive pod eater, and she too, started grabbing frozen after several months.

 

[Rugops]

To answer the OP's question.

Yes, you can house a Dragonet in your system. How you plan to do it is the question to be asked and if it either wild or captive-bred.

Not wanting to drive the topic too far off but:

I would like to add that there is a problem with some reefers telling people that they can or can not have Dragonets based solely off of tank size and nothing else.

This is what I have seen:

"I want a Mandarin".

"How big is your tank".

*Says its less than [INSERT NUMBER] gallons*

"You can't have one. You must have a [insert threshold size] tank."

*END OF CONVO*

Why can't I have one? There isn't a logical or reasonable explanation at times other than they are specialized feeders.

There are a lot of other factors that are never considered in these responses such as:

- Amount of Rock per Gallon
- Live Rock or Dry Rock
- Flow of Tank
- Supplemental sustenance (live brine, white worms, black worms, copepod cultures)
- A true measurement of pod population which requires continual observation at night (there may be a huge cluster of 20 pods but they may be the last and only ones)
and so on.

I find this dogmatic and rather discouraging for those who are capable to keep it but are told otherwise that it almost seems likes its impossible.

Its the same situation with the arbitrary '6 months until you can keep a nem' thing because the key with nems is stability.
That's all!

 

[Reef.]

This spotted wild caught eats both pods and frozen.
Had her many years. Never added a pod once.
I find the spotted to be easier to keep.

Is it in a 32g tank?

 

[blaxsun]

How often you think I would need to add pods? I'm assuming mine have been reproducing since around 8 months ago.

A bottle of store-bought a week unless you're growing your own.

 

[blaxsun]

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. I saw a nano tank with 4 tangs including a hippo. So also doable - just generally not a great idea.

Mandarins like "the hunt", so it's not just the larger size of the tank and rock work but all the cool places they can go spelunking while on the great pod quest.

If you have a happy mandarin you'll never see them...

 

[Kasrift]

You don't have enough pods, no. A mandarin needs at least 60-80 gallons to be self-replicating.

I disagree. I have a 32 gallon Fluval Flex and have a wild mandarin for a year and a half. I have tons of pods and the mandarin doesn't eat prepared or dead food. To be fair though, I dose an inordinate amount of live phyto since I culture it. I think this leads to huge populations of pods. I can't move a frag plug without 30 pods moving.

I was concerned about it, but put in a six line Wrasse as well and it is super fat and I still have lots of pods.

I do think you'd need to either dose phyto to keep positive population up or pods, but I found phytoplankton culturing to be easy enough.

 

[Rugops]

Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. I saw a nano tank with 4 tangs including a hippo. So also doable - just generally not a great idea.

Mandarins like "the hunt", so it's not just the larger size of the tank and rock work but all the cool places they can go spelunking while on the great pod quest.

If you have a happy mandarin you'll never see them...

Not a very good comparison. I assume you are speaking of larger tangs with a larger appetite and more waste production compared to a smaller, slower, less waster producing fish so in comparison, would be more logical and reasonable than your example.

There are lots of ways to recreate this so called "the hunt". It doesn't have to always be massive, that is where creativity comes into play unless the only way to reef is to do everything huge which is more dogmatic than anything and you forget we are in a modern era where this isn't the only way anymore. There are effective ways to keep fish like this in smaller tanks with all the resources we have been able to innovate.


If you never see it, you might as well assume its dead. Unethical fish keeping. How would you plan to assess its health and make sure its ACTUALLY eating if you can't even find it.

 

[blaxsun]

If you never see it, you might as well assume its dead. Unethical fish keeping. How would you plan to assess its health and make sure its ACTUALLY eating if you can't even find it.

Not every fish likes being on display. In answer to your question, I periodically check on them. But generally I let my fish do their thing (they seem to prefer it like that).

 

[Macdaddynick1]

sorry I meant to ask that of @Uncle99. I want a mandarin myself but after seeing my pod population get decimated by 2 mollies in a 25 lagoon that had an entire AIO chamber dedicated to their breeding grounds I didn’t think I should. At one point before the mollies I had so many pods my glass looked speckled 24/7.

You’re saying mollies eat pods? Do you know if they also eat amphipods?

 

[Propane]

You’re saying mollies eat pods? Do you know if they also eat amphipods?

my mollies eat pods for sure but I don’t know if they eat amphipods as well. They probably do but i can’t say for sure.

 

[Gundy]

To answer the OP's question.

Yes, you can house a Dragonet in your system. How you plan to do it is the question to be asked and if it either wild or captive-bred.

Not wanting to drive the topic too far off but:

I would like to add that there is a problem with some reefers telling people that they can or can not have Dragonets based solely off of tank size and nothing else.

This is what I have seen:

"I want a Mandarin".

"How big is your tank".

*Says its less than [INSERT NUMBER] gallons*

"You can't have one. You must have a [insert threshold size] tank."

*END OF CONVO*

Why can't I have one? There isn't a logical or reasonable explanation at times other than they are specialized feeders.

There are a lot of other factors that are never considered in these responses such as:

- Amount of Rock per Gallon
- Live Rock or Dry Rock
- Flow of Tank
- Supplemental sustenance (live brine, white worms, black worms, copepod cultures)
- A true measurement of pod population which requires continual observation at night (there may be a huge cluster of 20 pods but they may be the last and only ones)
and so on.

I find this dogmatic and rather discouraging for those who are capable to keep it but are told otherwise that it almost seems likes its impossible.

Its the same situation with the arbitrary '6 months until you can keep a nem' thing because the key with nems is stability.
That's all!

This is a very well thought out answer. I think we should all ask more ask more questions from a OP’s question if needEd before we give advice.

 

[Rugops]

Not every fish likes being on display. In answer to your question, I periodically check on them. But generally I let my fish do their thing (they seem to prefer it like that).

The periodically checking on them is the key I am talking about for but being able to do so, of course varies with the specimen you are trying to check in on. I realize many fish are shy. I am simply pointing out the Dragonets spp. as a whole in this case.

My Coral Beauty doesn't often let me see her so I can only get a glance and sometimes that is usually all I can get.

Marine Bettas from what I know, tend to hide a lot more but don't tend to move a lot either.

With Dragonets, they are in between these two. Not dashing around like it just drank a redbull when you come by and a balance of hiding and coming out so you will eventually know its condition.

For those bored with reading, I am just going to summarize all we talked about like this:

Reefers give advice based on their experiences. This is helpful of course and we can be grateful that someone has already gone through the gauntlet of keeping this beautiful specialized feeder and not just the creature but the vast majority of organisms we keep now .

Know that there is no set way that always works but rather a consensus, but bear in mind, the way it is primarily kept now may become outdated in the near future (e.g. huge tanks) which is already happening.

There are factors that will influence whether you are able to keep the animal or not and it isn't always on your part. For example in the picture above, mine got sick and died to bacterial infection, stress, and tissue necrosis which was out of my hands. Had this not been the case - I would have certainly been able to keep this animal and I am not trying to toot my own horn

. I already had this type of experience with other animals and had cultures READY just for this animal.

Variation between individuals also matters. One dragonet can be crackhead-like

and just go nuts for pods only and another... well....

....

You can't even tell what its doing....

Could be vibing. Dunno. Too much flake food.


See what I'm getting at though? You just don't know what can happen. It might not work out in a bigger tank, it might not even work in a smaller tank (which gives better odds if you have an increased amount of rock imo). It might not accept commercial food or it might not even eat at all.

Gather information from lots of different experiences, have a plan based on the individuals response and see what happens.

That being said, there is a increased likelihood of success if you get a captive-raised Dragonet. Some say the starry dragonets are easier to get to feed commercial foods then spotted dragonets then red and greens.

Start off by putting it in a breeding net and feed it live foods and then mix it up with live and prepared (e.g. live brine with frozen brine) if you are unsure if it takes anything prepared. I would look up cases like this. A friend of mine did it this way for a couple of weeks.

Get exactly the type of food they feed (if captive-raised). I notice that some of the cases where they have captive-raised dragonets not eating is because the food is unfamiliar or inappropriate.

Culture pods, or white worms (very easy), or black worms (easy), or live brine shrimp (easyish) or all of the above! Do make sure it has pods. You will at least have a safety net if all else fails.

All that hubbub said, it is not recommended to keep this fish for anyone below the 6 month period of starting their tank. Not because of pods but rather this is a learning period and Dragonets often do not forgive (they can waste away pretty bad). It is a learning curve compared to clowns and can be frustrating.

 

[blaxsun]

I have a marine betta - he/she is primarily nocturnal and prefers hiding in a cave most of the day (it will come out to be hand fed, though).

I have 3 dwarf angels and at least two are spelunking in the rocks at any given time (unless it's feeding time, then they're all out).

I have a dottyback that spends a lot of time in the caves and burrows he's dug out, but is also active during feeding.

I have 4 lyretail chromis that spend most of their time in barnacles with their heads poking out (yep, chromis). I have another bicolor chromis that spends most of the day in the lair he's established for himself - and I never see him unless it's feeding time.

And the pair of dragonets are the most illusive of all - I'll only catch a blue/green flash when they occasionally emerge from the rocks only to disappear just as quickly.

Most of these fish I've had for over 2 years (some longer), but other than replacing knocked over corals my reef is a "hands off" as much as possible.

 

[OrionN]

This pair is in my 40 gal breeder which have no food competitor in it. The tank is generously fed with frequent large volume water changes. As you can see, they are both doing very well and spawn all the time. You can keep one in a 32 gal, provide that you don’t keep and pod feeder and arrange areas of rubbles in a large part of the tank. These “Pod piles” (as I call them) will give refuges to pods and keep the Mandarin from eliminate them from the tank. It is these “pod piles” that keep the pod population up and supply the Mandarin with ready to eat healthy food. I keep Mandarin long term in a sa 24 gal cube with no problem but I must set up and arrange the aquaecapes and choose tank mates accordingly. In the 24 gal cube I had a small Magnifica and a pair of Percula as tank mate.

My Mandarins are fat and out all the time. They are camera hogs and strutting in front of the tank, display all the time. That is why I got so many beautiful picture of displaying Mandarin.
I disagree with some one who posted above that we never see happy Mandarin. I had multi-pairs of Mandarins in my40+ years of reefing and they are always out. That is why I like this species so much. I keep them in 420 gals down to 24 gal cube. I cannot stress enough that in small tank you need to make sure the tank is conductive to have a thriving pod population.

I keep Mandarin in a 65 gal but with a trio of Flame angels. After 3 months I have to remove the Mandarin because the angels outcompete the mandarin for food. Dwarf angels and certain wrasses are not compatible with mandarin is small tanks.

 

[OrionN]

Here are a few pictures of my Mandarins. Most people who are interested in Mandarins and look at Mandarin threads here on R2R likely have seen a numbers of my pictures. These fish are among the most photogenic of my fishes.

 

[OrionN]

32

Rodan
Your fish selection is OK. I would have various area in your tanks with piles of coral rubble size of less than 1/2 inches. If you can find a bunches of bivalve shells it would be great. If you don’t have small bivalve shells use a hammer and crush oyster or small clam shells to these size would be great. Shells are best to use because the concave surfaces pile up will give plenty of volume for pods to take refuge in and not get eaten by the Mandarin. You must feed them and keep the water clean while doing this. 32 gal is easy to maintain. 50% change every month or so would be more than adequate water change.
The important thing is to give the pods safe respites from the predation of the fish. These pods will reproduce and the pod population will spread out outside of the piles and will feed you Mandarin.
Either that, not having Mandarin or you can become a Mandarin slave and feeding them according to @Paul B Mandarin feeder.

Good luck with keeping this beautiful fish.

 

[shcrimps]

You can but you need to find a reliable source for pods and be willing to continue feeding them. Also take into account that the mandarin won’t be the only fish enjoying them.

second this
i have a 65g with plenty of pods and even i buy a double pack of pods every other month or so to be sure, especially when my other fish get them during the day too