Can not get nutrients up, what would you do?

[Pete_the_Puma]

Hi all,

For details see my build thread here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/petes-140g-sps-peninsula-build-pics.602194/#post-6082904

So I am having a really hard time getting anything but absolute ZERO on both nitrate and phosphates.

I use Salifert for Nitrates and Hanna for phosphate. I actually had to check my test kits as I was getting worried they were faulty/expired. I did this by testing aquarium water with drops of NeoPhos and NeoNitro in there, both work.

For export I have:

Fuge with Cheato and Kessil H380, TRITON method supplements
Protein skimmer is Reef Octopus 200 INT, with CO2 scrubber intake
Brick of Brightwell XPORT-Bio in the sump for the pods to frolic in


I have a decent bioload (3 tangs, 4 anthias, 3 cardinals, 1 royal gramma, 1 six line wrasse) in a 140 gallon tank.

I feed like CRAZY:
3 feeding of pellets mixed with ReefRoids daily from the automatic feeder
1-2 full cubes of mysis or brine daily
Liberal dumping of Reefroids and ReefFrenzy powder daily or every other day
10-20 ml of acropower daily or every other day

As that was not doing the trick for about a week now I have dosed increasing amounts of NeoNitro and NeoPhos (Now up to 32ml of Neonitro and 20ml of NeoPhos in 4 divided doses)

I just tested again... 0 Nitrate 0.00 Phopshate!

Now you might say that is all fine and well but I do have some Dinos and my Acros are getting slightly pale. I need more nutrients!

The kicker is I am reticent to turn off the skimmer or reduced the photoperiod on the sump as the combination of CO2 scrubber and reverse schedule lighting have done miracles to my pH (8.35 at night and 8.65 during the day!)

So that is where the poll comes in, what would you do?

- Feed even more!
- Turn off or reduce timing on the skimmer
- Decrease the photoperiod on the Fuge/cheato
- Dose more NeoNitro and NeoPhos!
- Throw a dead lobster in the tank!


Thanks for any input!


Pete

 

[Flippers4pups]

With zeros across the board and corals in the tank paling, I would dose.

Taking the skimmer off line to raise them will take sometime, as will reducing your refugium photo period.

Raise your N03 first. Once it's around 5-10 PPM, Then raise the P04 to .02.

Adjustments in both may be needed, but N03 should always be above P04.

 

[Coastie Reefer]

Yup. Dose NO3. You’ll be surprised what it can do. A 1 lb bag from green leaf aquariums will run you like 3-4 bucks.

 

[sghera64]

Go slow on the NO3 additions. Your numbers will barely rise for about 3-7 days and then suddenly they will jump (even if you add a consistent amount).

Does you system have a lot cyano anywhere in it?

 

[CMO]

Sounds like the story of my tank nearly exactly. I have a 165g sps dominant Triton tank and went through all the same things. Pale acros, dinos, feed a TON (4+ cubes daily) and still no readings absent dosing. I run the same skimmer but the 150 version on my 165 since the fuge is so efficient. Even with reducing fuge light down to 8 hours (I also run H380) and skimming very dry with an undersized skimmer still get nothing.

Dosing can take several weeks at normal doses to start registering so you should see something soon if you keep it up.

 

[CMO]

Go slow on the NO3 additions. Your numbers will barely rise for about 3-7 days and then suddenly they will jump (even if you add a consistent amount).

Does you system have a lot cyano anywhere in it?

Very true. Once it starts to register be careful as it will rise quickly from there. My maintenance dose is 10ml per day of neonitro FWIW.

 

[Pete_the_Puma]

Thanks for all the replies:

No cyano, just Dinos and pale'ish corals

So should I Increase my NeoNitro and NeoPhos dosage or just keep it as is and continue to test daily?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

IMHO dosing nitrates is not necessary. I guarantee you can add enough food to register with nitrates and phosphates without turning off your skimmer. Food energy added to the tank will keep your fish very fat and happy; their GI tracts are not very efficient, they will excrete food rich waste the perfect size for your corals. This will also help promote a strong biodiversity in your system. Also organic food has a C : N : P ratio that your corals need. N and P alone is not enough. Dinos thrive when there is a significant imbalance

 

[Idoc]

Keep dosing...but don't over-dose the amount. Eventually it starts showing up and you can reduce dosing if not stop all together. It took about 4 weeks of dosing no3/po4 before it stayed in the system...i stopped dosing, and my levels are still elevated and now climbing with feeding alone.

 

[Pete_the_Puma]

Finally someone voted for the dead lobster lol!

 

[mikus]

I also have the same occurrence of zero nutrients. My tank is new, approx. 3 months past the cycle. Its a 120 w/ 55gal sump/fuge, stocked with 2 clowns, 1 damsel, 1 coral angel, 1 six line wrasse, 2 cleaner shrimp, and 2 emerald crabs. I seeded the tank during cycle with aqua vitro seed as well as Dr. Tim's along with a big old shrimp. As soon as the bacteria bloom died down, I began adding fish, food, cheato (also with the h380), and skimmer on. Started the fuge photo period at 3 hrs. and ramped up to 9 hrs currently. At first, the cheato looked to not be doing so well, while at the same time the skimmer (rsk300) was producing a ton of skim. I opened up the waste drain on the skimmer to drain into the fuge constantly to recycle the nutrients, while still pulling out larger waste onto the walls of the waste cup and producing good gas exchange. Since then (approx. two weeks since recycling the skim) the cheato looks very healthy and has at least doubled in mass. Sill feeding excessively...Still zero nutrients. I'm going to stock 1 or 2 more fish and keep regular feeding schedule for another month or so to get a base line on nutrients before I begin to add corals. If I go with sps dominant, I guess zero nutrients will be a blessing. If I go mix reef or softies/lps, I'm guessing I will have to dial back my photo period on the fuge, and/or possibly dose nitrate?? I don't want to not grow cheato, as its a part of the system I enjoy watching evolve and provides a great bio filter and home for pods. I also don't want to take the skimmer offline since it helps remove larger contaminants as well as good gas exchange.

 

[Flippers4pups]

@mikus, in young systems, under a year old regardless if mixed or not, I would keep N03 at 5-10ppm and P04 at trace of .02.

When bio-load and coral load increase, then systems can handle elevated N03 and P04.

My system is turning 5 years old soon and is *mature" biologically to handle 30-40 ppm N03 and .05 P04.

Here's a article on the Masters and their parameters:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/tank-parameters-of-some-masters.263/

When your tank is young, let it mature, be patient and always dip your corals.

 

[Style185]

More fish/food/roids my guess. Depending on how large your sps are and tank size. If your taking too much out you'd have to dose... imo than you'd be exporting too much nutrients from your filtering system (what ever that may be) I'm all for high nutrient system easier to take away than add imo lol

 

[phil bevilacqua]

I had same..... took my fuge completely out and bought more fish which brought pho’s up but I still dose 10 mil a day neonitro... it is what it is. Lol

 

[TX_Punisher]

When I feed pellets my po4 rises quickly.

More so than frozen.

Food for thought.

 

[CMO]

IMHO dosing nitrates is not necessary. I guarantee you can add enough food to register with nitrates and phosphates without turning off your skimmer. Food energy added to the tank will keep your fish very fat and happy; their GI tracts are not very efficient, they will excrete food rich waste the perfect size for your corals. This will also help promote a strong biodiversity in your system. Also organic food has a C : N : P ratio that your corals need. N and P alone is not enough. Dinos thrive when there is a significant imbalance

Guarantee is a bit overconfident I'd say. I guarantee you there is no reasonable amount of food that would register nitrates on my Triton tank (and that I can say because it's my tank and I've tried!). BRS and many others report similar....

 

[Halal Hotdog]

Guarantee is a bit overconfident I'd say. I guarantee you there is no reasonable amount of food that would register nitrates on my Triton tank (and that I can say because it's my tank and I've tried!). BRS and many others report similar....

When you nitrate dose you are adding more nitrate than your system can breakdown, until there is a free form in the water you can measure. You can absolutely replicate that with food, obviously if you choose not to than you won't. 'Reasonable' is relative to your tank. If what you are feeding is not meeting the nutritional needs of your system then you are under feeding. That is not over confidence, but merely the nitrogen cycle.

 

[Sallstrom]

Thanks for all the replies:

No cyano, just Dinos and pale'ish corals

So should I Increase my NeoNitro and NeoPhos dosage or just keep it as is and continue to test daily?

I would increase the nutrient dosing a bit until you get above zero on the measurements and/or you see the dinos go back.

We're having the same issue at the moment at my work, starting up two large propagation systems while rebuilding. We're dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 daily and it seems like the nutrients just disappears. But finally after a month we're getting some reading on nitrate and the slimy hair algae I'm guessing are Dinoflagellates went away.

The challenge is to combine the nitrate and phosphate dosing and getting them at the right level. Dosing too little phosphate the nitrate dosing might push the phosphate to zero. And on the other hand you don't want the phosphate to raise too much. So I like to measure almost daily to avoid overdosing etc.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

Not one of the choices, but have you considered removing half of the chaeto and adjusting your skimmer to skim drier? Also, do you use filter socks. pads, or floss? If so, I would remove those as well. Your tank is young based on the date of your build thread. I agree that you want your nutrients above 0, but they should still be low on a tank that is only a few months old or you will run into algae problems.

 

[Jinko]

Young tanks syndrome, give it a few years when ditritus has had a chance to build up. [emoji14]

I would probably find a middle ground of feeding more and dosing nutrients, it will be trial and error until you find an equilibrium.