can someone please answer this question about copper

[JVH]

I want to know Is It possible to use a different copper treatment to finish my copper treatment in my QT tank while treating for MI?
If I do a XL water change and the original copper product is well diluted can I use a different copper product for my remaining time?

 

[TJ's Reef]

Great question and will be following to reply. What copper treatment are you using currently and which do you intend to switch to ???

I have suggested to change up to Cupramine a few times as feel its the best/safest but after doing a 100% water change first.


Cheers, Todd

 

[saltyphish]

I just read a post a few weeks ago on this same topic and the answer was no. It is something about the differences in copper. I believe Randy was the one who responded. Memory isn't the best.

 

[JVH]

Great question and will be following to reply. What copper treatment are you using currently and which do you intend to switch to ???

I have suggested to change up to Cupramine a few times as feel its the best/safest but after doing a 100% water change first.

Someone recommended Kordon copper-aid and said to follow box instructions to the letter. So I have been treating for 2 weeks. The recommended timeframe is 1 month. So after 2 weeks my Midas Blenny who is in QT with all my other fish is scratching worse then ever before! And as of this morning I think my clown may have white spots yet again!
I know many people use Cupramine and are happy with it so I was going to do a few back to back large WC to try and remove as much of the old product. I am really surprised to see the blenny start scratching so bad. I just feel like this may not be working!

I see saltyphish just posted that he read "no" you can't mix. But I fee like I'm not really helping them id they are still symptomatic.

 

[4FordFamily]

Honestly, because of the affects of copper on fish (even cupramine which is safer than many) I wouldn't switch it. I would stay with what you have for the remainder. Going forward, I would always use cupramime. It's fantastic and I have used it on every angel below in my sig without issue at .5-.6 levels (more than necessary)

 

[JVH]

Honestly, because of the affects of copper on fish (even cupramine which is safer than many) I wouldn't switch it. I would stay with what you have for the remainder. Going forward, I would always use cupramime. It's fantastic and I have used it on every angel below in my sig without issue at .5-.6 levels (more than necessary)

Thanks! hopefully their wont be a next time! So you don't think I should switch? What if the stuff I'm using is not having any affect since everyone is showing signs?

 

[4FordFamily]

What product are you using?

1) you may need a different copper test kit because you don't have the therapeutic amount in there (test daily until stable and I would still test daily after that)
2) increase copper.

 

[saltyphish]

I agree! That post I read also mentioned using the seachem copper test kit for cupramine. There was something about the different types of coppers being used for treatment that caused problems. Like 3fordfamily says stich with cupramine and get the seachem test kit.

What product are you using?

1) you may need a different copper test kit because you don't have the therapeutic amount in there (test daily until stable and I would still test daily after that)
2) increase copper.

 

[Humblefish]

Cupramine is ionic copper, while Coppersafe is chelated. I believe most other copper products are chelated as well. The theraputic range for ionic copper (0.35-0.5 ppm) is much lower than it is for chelated (1.5-2.0 ppm). Therefore, they are not compatible and should never be mixed together.

However, you can switch from one to the other by doing a large WC and running carbon for a couple of days.

 

[4FordFamily]

Cupramine is ionic copper, while Coppersafe is chelated. I believe most other copper products are chelated as well. The theraputic range for ionic copper (0.35-0.5 ppm) is much lower than it is for chelated (1.5-2.0 ppm). Therefore, they are not compatible and should never be mixed together.

However, you can switch from one to the other by doing a large WC and running carbon for a couple of days.

Agreed. And a water change would not remove all copper, it would take a week or two of running carbon and some type of cuprasorb (although I don't know iff it would work as well for chelated coppers) to get rid of all but the slightest trace element. I don't know if that matters, but I suspect it does. (Because copper will leach back out as it leached in when you dosed it). If you have live rock, substrate, etc. then this issue will be amplified.

 

[TJ's Reef]

@Humblefish , at this point would it be wise to advise doing the 'Tank transfer' method instead ??? Reducing the additional chemical stress to his fish.


Cheers, Todd

 

[4FordFamily]

@Humblefish , at this point would it be wise to advise doing the 'Tank transfer' method instead ??? Reducing the additional chemical stress to his fish.


Cheers, Todd

You didn't ask me, but copper already weakens immunity and is stressful for fish, ttm is immensely stressful, I think that would be ill advised but I am not the target for your question.

 

[TJ's Reef]

You didn't ask me, but copper already weakens immunity and is stressful for fish, ttm is immensely stressful, I think that would be ill advised but I am not the target for your question.

Certainly no disrespect meant, especially to another Hoosier... lol Was asking mainly because of not knowing myself how repeated immersion in two differing copper medications would effect Fish.... obviously not well so looking for lesser of 'evils' in this case as a suggestion to OP.

Cheers, Todd


P.S. Where is Fishers ? I was born in Columbus IN and spent first 4 years in Fort Wayne before moving to Seattle back in 1964...

 

[JVH]

Okay, so all that being said and thank you everybody who contributed to my question , I don't think I will switch just yet but two weeks and they are still showing white spots which I noticed today and still scratching. I feel like it hasn't begun to work yet and I feel like once the symptoms stop that's when The clock begins the 72 days Therefore they're going to be in quarantine for 100 days!

 

[4FordFamily]

Certainly no disrespect meant, especially to another Hoosier... lol Was asking mainly because of not knowing myself how repeated immersion in two differing copper medications would effect Fish.... obviously not well so looking for lesser of 'evils' in this case as a suggestion to OP.

Cheers, Todd


P.S. Where is Fishers ? I was born in Columbus IN and spent first 4 years in Fort Wayne before moving to Seattle back in 1964...

Fishers is north of Indianapolis maybe 30 minutes, next to Carmel and noblesville. I went to college my first year in Fort Wayne at ipfw!

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish , at this point would it be wise to advise doing the 'Tank transfer' method instead ??? Reducing the additional chemical stress to his fish.

Yes; IMO TTM is the best possible solution for a hobbyist treating ich. So long as one is willing/able to put forth the time & effort, and attention to detail is observed. You have to be a little OCD when doing TTM. You also must be certain it is ich you are dealing with and not velvet.

 

[JVH]

Every day another problem! My Seifert test for copper finally arrived after taking a week and a half from Amazon when normally things take two days maybe three. So I took the test immediately and it's not showing any copper level at all and I know it's not true because I've been putting copper in it! Then I made a couple of other tests using twice as much water just to see if I can get any color change at all and nothing! No color change whatsoever and I've done several tests .. I may as well be testing water with water! Is my test bad? Is my copper bad? Is that why my fish are still scratching and still showing signs? I am so over this and so frustrated I've done nothing but agonize over trying to help these fish in my tank doing an emergency quarantine an emergency water change for three nights already. no matter what I do it doesn't seem to be the right thing. so I'm going to do nothing except observe them and do weekly water changes and continue to count to my 2 1/2 months of DT going fallow then put them back in! End of story!

 

[Humblefish]

JVH I think I know what the problem is ... but I need you to confirm something for me. Is the product you are using called "Kordon Copper-AID"?

 

[JVH]

@JVH I think I know what the problem is ... but I need you to confirm something for me. Is the product you are using called "Kordon Copper-AID"?

YES! I tried to post a pic but I can't for some reason it say exactly:
Kordon Safe Copper -aid to use for ich,velvet and other parasite and protects for 1 month.
I would be very grateful if you have a clue as to what's going on.. All I can think of is I haven't really been treating the tank all this time and that's why symptoms are all coming back and I have restart my QT. Little orange clown may be next! Not to mention 3 of the 4 fish have tattered and frayed looking fins now!

 

[Humblefish]

The problem is you have an incompatible test kit for the type of copper you are using.

Salifert and Seachem copper test kit only measure in the low range. These cater to Cupramine, which is ionic copper designed to be effective in the low range of 0.35-0.5 ppm.

Coppersafe and this "Kordon Copper-AID" you are using are chelated copper, a completely different animal. Chelated copper is only effective in the high range of 1.5-2.0 ppm. So, to measure chelated copper you need a "total copper test kit" such as API copper test kit.