Can this coral kill me?

[ZoWhat]

Here is what I posted in last year, November 2018:

I've had pretty severe palytoxin poisoning before. Bc my 180g DT is 95% palys and zoas

Im a stupid stupid man, who scrubbed over 200-300 palys from LRs in the tank with a toothbrush with my bare arms in the tank. All bc i didnt want green palys anymore.

Got palytoxin absorbed thru my skin. Possibly thru small cut on my arms. Idk

My symptoms:
* rapid heartbeat (couldn't get my heartrate down below 90bpm for 3 days)
* throat and chest CLOSED up making it feel like breathing thru a straw (but I have a rescue inhaler that helped)
* extreme tiredness (just to walkup a flight of steps was exhausting)
* headache (entire head, not localized)

Symptoms lasted 4-5 days but symptoms got better each day. NEVER felt like I was gonna die, just severely sick

My sickness mimicked having a severe bout of the Flu

High medical deductible kept me from seeking medical attn. what the heck they gonna do? Give a bag of IV solution and send me home with a $1500 bill? No thanks... Again, felt sick but never like I was going to die.

During my toothbrush scrubbing episode NO ONE in my house was effect at all but myself....

I've since handled palys and been touched by the slimecoat but always immediately wash my hands and no further incident have ever happened since the stupid scrubbing incident

Palytoxin is like working a chainsaw. You must deeply respect both. But people totally flipping out bc they touched a paly colony is phobic to me. But to each his own

I frag palys all the time gloveless bc I need the dexterity to frag. I know to avoid the polyp squirting juice in my face. And to minimize touching the slimecoat

I touch palys all the time while fragging but use caution and always wash hands immediately afterwards.

Where palys get dangerous is when they are scrubbed or any activity where they slimeup with a release of defense toxins.

But palys in your tank, undisturbed are beautiful to watch grow and are safe to keep. I would say you're a 1,000,000 times more likely to die in a house fire than die keeping palys

But severe illness is a definite possibility if the slimcoat gets into you body

 

[scubareefer]

Very supportive community. Thanks all!

 

[scubareefer]

With all the crazy posts of death and destruction that will happen with zoas and palys, there sure aren't any people dropping dead from em ever...

This post wasn’t meant to be about death and destruction, simple questions were asked. Not overly concerned but was curious about the risks. Regardless of how small they may be.

 

[scubareefer]

Massive number of zoa/paly freaks out there myself included , I wouldn't worry about it just use proper caution , don't ever buy a coral you have not researched and deemed you can keep alive ,it may keep you alive. They will outgrow your 3.7 gallon tank before anything else happens I suspect . They grow like weeds

Keeping “easy to care for” coral was the idea behind this little tank - have done plenty of research but the Palytoxin topic was only discovered after the introduction. The goal of the tank is to be low maintenance and have fast growing coral. Not meant to be the prettiest tank, more of an experimental tank.

 

[nitrodude]

I still swear these got me and my wife seriously ill some time back when resetting one of my tanks after a hurricane.
I lost all my fish and corals and was resetting the tank. Pulled all my rock out and recycled them in a trash can.
About a month later of being in a dark trash can with circulating salt water my wife helped me rescape my tank. The next day we both had flu like sickness. Puking. Nausea. I really rarely get sick but this was by far the worst sickness I've ever had. I was sick 2 days. Wife was sick for almost 4.

Once we got through the sickness I looked in the tank and to my amazement...those green palys were spread on a couple of rocks and opening back up. Mind you-this whole tank died off. Fish and coral. No water circulation for 7 days (we evacuated) then sat in a trash can with no light for almost a month. And they lived.

They are still in the tank to this day and I wish there was something I could do to get rid of them other then destroying my rock work and breaking off acros to get them out.

Even if you arent afraid of getting sick-get rid of them because once they are in there and growing, its a pain to get them out

 

[HB AL]

Without knowing exactly how toxic the ones you have are, your probably always gonna be wondering " what if", in that case I would get rid of them.

 

[Tamberav]

Now that I have your attention, should I keep this frag in my 3.7 gallon tank? I wasn’t aware of palytoxins until after I placed the coral in the tank. What is the potential for the toxins to be released and to come into contact with me? I wear gloves anytime I do water exchanges or perform husbandry. Am I being paranoid or is it worth taking back? I also have a frag of gsp and anthelia. Do I need to be worried about these coral? Idea of the tank is to be low maintenance with easy corals that reproduce quickly and I don’t want to worry about being introduced to a toxic chemical.

Not likely to kill you unless you eat them or snort them.

However handling them and such could give you a headache and a cough. I would just get rid of them and replace with a colorful zoa (not all of them contain toxins).

Softies have toxins too but nothing to really worry about, but they make me feel blah if I handle my slimey softies without gloves.

 

[Terri Caton]

I dont mean to give the green light to be careless, but same basic level of precautions should be taken with every coral, if you are fragging, wear gloves, if zoa/palys , wear eye protection in addition.

Follow the same protocols as you would a high powered cleaner, or any other toxic stuff you have lurking under your kitchen sink.


Again, coupled with the rampant misidentification caused by the "comic book" Zoa names- like Pandora palys, people eater palys, armour of the gods palys"etc etc.
all of which are actually not part of the palythoa genus at all ;Hilarious and the majority of zoanthus sp contain zero toxins at all!


Here is the problem though, It does the hobby damage when such uninformed fear mongering is run rampant.


Keeping these corals are not a risk if you take basic precautions, no different than keeping a plant or flower that has medically significant toxins, it isn't a mobile venomous animal armed with hypodermic needles, be smarter than the coral and you will be aye okay.

just my .02

Only thing I would add is wear eye protection when fragging no matter the type of coral. Lots of sharp bits can be flying around.

 

[SeaDweller]

I had some bright green heliodiscus ones until I started to Kalk the snot out of them. Now I’m dealing with annoying ones, gonna Kalk whichever ones I can. For me, it’s nots so much the toxins but they’re a nuisance.

 

[dlockert]

Here's an article that talks about what palys are likely to be toxic. Surprisingly, not really very many of them. As others have noted, stick to bright red, orange, pink ones - they won't be toxic. Zoas are not expected to be toxic at all.

The Dangers (and Myths) of Zoa Toxicity – Part 1

The oceans are full of creatures capable of killing us; one of the more surprising marine menaces is a group of popular aquarium corals known variably as “but

reefs.com

 

[Stevegrant]

shaking my head
Rhe risks are blown way out of proportion!


Plus those pictured look like P. mutuki which have been shown to only contain traces, some specimens collected of this species of palythoa had even undetectable levels of toxins.

You take bigger risks driving your car to work everyday.

That may be true and I understand, but believe me or not I lost a cornea handling a Paly before I had even heard of palytoxin.

 

[Zeal]

Real question how do you dispose of it without killing anyone?

 

[HawaiianReef]

I thought you pretty much had to inhale it,eat it, or literally have a large cut and like try to drip it on the cut to get poisoned. People get a little too nervous with it and you aren't going to get sick just by sticking your hand/arm in the tank. Below is the(or one of) the cases of the guy who boiled his rocks and had issues. Fragging is another to watch out for since it can get into your eye(which is very sensitive) or mouth which is where the real issue comes in. NIH gov link.

Palytoxin-induced acute respiratory failure - PMC

Palytoxin is one of the most potent toxins known to mankind and poses a high risk to humans through ingestion, inhalation and dermal routes [1,2]. Although the exact mechanism of action is unknown it is postulated that palytoxin binds to the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's not true at all. I'm quite immune to most toxins and handle them with my bare hands. That comes from handling them in the wild for about 4 decades. I just started reefing and that practice created very bad habits. I had an injured mushroom that I reached in and grabbed. Out of the tank I just barely touched a ripped section with my fingertip. In less than 10 seconds my heart beated erratically and I got dizzy. I was alone so I grabbed an epi pen and got ready to stick my leg, while I entered 911 and got ready to press dial. That was an eye opener for me. I never expected that quick of an effect. I used to handle my anemones with my hands, now I will never touch anything in my tank without gloves again. Well, that and those dang brisstle worms!

 

[Fishurama]

That's not true at all. I'm quite immune to most toxins and handle them with my bare hands. That comes from handling them in the wild for about 4 decades. I just started reefing and that practice created very bad habits. I had an injured mushroom that I reached in and grabbed. Out of the tank I just barely touched a ripped section with my fingertip. In less than 10 seconds my heart beated erratically and I got dizzy. I was alone so I grabbed an epi pen and got ready to stick my leg, while I entered 911 and got ready to press dial. That was an eye opener for me. I never expected that quick of an effect. I used to handle my anemones with my hands, now I will never touch anything in my tank without gloves again. Well, that and those dang brisstle worms!

I guess you know more then the NIH. You arent going to get sick just putting your hand in the tank or even touching them. You need to inhale,ingest it, or literally try to get the poison in your blood stream through a cut in your skin. There are many videos of people touching them, new,advanced, aquarists with bare hands, they don't die, it shouldn't harm you. As i stated, you literally would need to try to like squeeze the zoa/paly into a cut and try to hope it has enough toxin to harm you. Or as someone else here posted, had a cut and scrubbed rocks in the tank allowing it to build up from destroying them all at once. I stick my bare hand in my tank all the time, you will be fine. There is a reason these are considered a beginner coral, and almost killing you just for touching it, would highly go against that. With all that said, when fragging be careful, wear eye protection, wear mouth protection, cover any large cuts and you should be good.

 

[HawaiianReef]

There are also a lot of people getting seriously sick from jellyfish stings. Some deaths.
I've never experienced a major problem touching the flesh of a coral, but the slime from a mushroom when it's cut... that's a completely different story.

 

[Billdogg]

Could you have problems? Sure. Probably not with proper precautions. IME, the bigger worry is them spreading everywhere in your system. They will grow and spread rapidly if not kept in check. If you must have them, I would suggest keeping them on a small "island" of their own away from your main rock work. That way, when they do start to spread you can easily prune them down to a manageable number. Wearing gloves and eye protection, of course.

 

[C. Eymann]

That may be true and I understand, but believe me or not I lost a cornea handling a Paly before I had even heard of palytoxin.

I'm really sorry that happened to you, just to be clear, I am not advocating anyone to handle or frag these corals, or any corals for that matter without taking precautions. (goggles, gloves, mask)

I just think that the fear mongering needs to stop.

If people want to avoid palythoa, I understand, however that leads us to the bigger problem of rampant misidentification via comic book names, many things labeled "paly" arent real palythoa, usually these "palys" are actually zoanthus gigantus, Z. kuroshio, Z. vietnamensis etc etc

Some of these "false palys" are quite pretty and it pains me that people avoid them because they assume they are real palythoa.

 

[dieselkeeper]

I had grandis palys got me. Moved the rock they was on. I did not notice they had grew onto the rock next to it. I moved some stuff around. I did notice some corals closed up after that. I had fever that evening and felt really bad.

 

[C. Eymann]

I had grandis palys got me. Moved the rock they was on. I did not notice they had grew onto the rock next to it. I moved some stuff around. I did notice some corals closed up after that. I had fever that evening and felt really bad.

I think some people seem to be more reactive to palytoxin than others, this seems to be common among cactus and succulent keepers with the genus euphorbia, some people can recieve bad dermal irritation and malaise from contact with the milky saps these produce, whereas others have no reaction at all.
What complexes me though is that palytoxin is a non protein toxin, I'm not well versed on poisons (ingesation, inhalation etc etc) but I know with venoms (subdermal), the catalyst that causes allergic reactions are the proteins in the venom usually.

 

[Sea MunnKey]

If I can find my one & only selfie of my blistering eyeballs ... (I'm not a selfie picture guy myself pleaseee .... ;Nailbiting) . I'll post it here if I do locate it.