Can you quarantine fish without copper and low salinity?

[CyberGuy]

I am in the process of setting up a quarantine 20 gallon tank for fish and perhaps some corals. I plan to set it up like a regular mix reef tank with slightly less live rocks so I can catch the fish more easily. Has anyone set up a quarantine tank without using copper or low salinity? I just want to hold the fish in the tank about 6 weeks to see if it develop any disease before putting it in the display tank. Is this natural way of quarantine effective?

 

[Big G]

I'm sure lots of people do what you are considering. So you are gambling that one or more of the fish are not "carriers" of a disease or parasites while not showing symptoms. Lots of stories of these "Typhoid Marys" carrying disease/parasites and later infecting added fish. Or some stressor event like an injury, etc. lowering the fish's immune system and then the disease or parasites over take the fish fairly rapidly.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Tou can look into tank transfer , not perfect, but better than nothing.

 

[Sunny Goold]

I'm interested in this. I don't want to use copper and I'd like to use the same 20G for QTing both fish and coral - but will do 1 at a time.
Melevs Reef uses safety stop - like 2 baths for fish with 1 being Methylene Blue (the other maybe Malacite Green) - I am definitely going to use Methylene Blue - then I will need something for parasites but I may wait till the fish settles in for a couple of weeks. I will probably drop the salinity or do tank transfer method in the middle.

With corals I am going to dip them when they come in (probably Revive or Iodine) and I will observe them. American Reef recently did an amazing interview with Top Shelf Aquatics on dipping, cutting the plugs off and gluing to ensure no pests - it is well worth a look.

So for me I think how you are thinking is smart assuming you are going to dip first and then observe. I also think many species of fish will like a bit of live rock with some pods to pick on etc. I have some bio balls so where I have fish that don't use pods (for example ich prone tangs) I will likely use a couple of bio balls, use methylene blue whilst drip acclimating, and then do like a tank transfer method with a 5 gallon bucket or maybe just a 2nd hand tank or something and I will use 'recycled' bio balls from my sump each time. I want something on the way in and then one thing that deals with ich etc. and another for parasites. Austin's MACNA presentation a few years ago (on BRS) is amazing BTW.

With corals I think the dipping, cleaning, re-plugging and glueing on introduction would all be the same but with fish I think some species may require some alteration / customisation so I would research and Humblefish and others have some great posts here on quarantine.

Mostly from what I read here others are going to say that you really have to have a thorough QT method and whilst I think just 'observation' will help it's not gonna stop an issue and you are going to be dealing with issues in your QT you could have prevented? Methylene blue (from what I've read) is completely safe, helps with acclimation and is gonna drastically reduce issues. From there I need to read more but if you want something simple that is probably going to prevent the vast majority of fish issues I would just go with safety stop on the way in and then observe in your QT.

Here is the American Reef on keeping coral pests out Hope it helps and I look forward to any criticisms / advice that is posted in this thread (and directions to older posts that more thoroughly explore this).

 

[CyberGuy]

How come not so many people use methylene blue but instead just jump into copper treatment?

 

[Sunny Goold]

How come not so many people use methylene blue but instead just jump into copper treatment?

Well I would think people either want to do nothing or nuke everything as fast as possible - and the latter go with copper. In a non-commercial QT setup though where you have time I don't get it especially when copper (as I understand it) is detrimental to the fishes health.
I also feel like it becomes a bit complex coming up with a program for QTing your fish that should get rid of both ich (and similar) and then parasites whilst boosting the health of the fish. I think my solution is more research here and come up with what I think and then I am going to run it by Bob Fenner on Wet Web Media (and maybe Humblefish).
I also feel like QT is seen primarily as a way to get rid of diseases. I think you (@CyberGuy ) probably see strengthening the fishes health as just as important, which is what I do plus I think we both want out QT display to look nice. I think QT can be all 3 things.
Oh - also I got a small hang on filter from Aquatop that has a 5w UV for my quarantine. It is pretty cheap (maybe $50) and I think that can only be beneficial in QT.

 

[AcroNem]

If you're wanting to quarantine but not use hyposalinity or copper, then I would suggest Formalin treatments. But if you're setting up a 20g as a small tank with rock and everything then honestly it's observation not actual quarantine, and as for if it is effective you will get mixed answers. Some will say it's better than meds but others (like myself, and @Big G has already said this) will say you're gambling too much and it is a risk. It is really up to you, and if you wish to treat with other methods I'm always happy to help

 

[Lasse]

I am in the process of setting up a quarantine 20 gallon tank for fish and perhaps some corals. I plan to set it up like a regular mix reef tank with slightly less live rocks so I can catch the fish more easily. Has anyone set up a quarantine tank without using copper or low salinity? I just want to hold the fish in the tank about 6 weeks to see if it develop any disease before putting it in the display tank. Is this natural way of quarantine effective?

IMO - this is the most used method worldwide - no prophylactic treatment - only treatment when needed and with indication of certain disease. If you use this method, I will suggest that you during the last two weeks slowly (maybe 5 – 10 % a day) do WC with help of the water in the DT. This of two reasons – vaccination against pathogens existing in the DT not seen by the fish before and that the fish get the same smell as the fishes in the DT. This with smell sounds funny but I have experiences with very aggressive fishes (like Lake Tanganyika cichlids) and this way of handling new fish before introducing reduce the loss by stress and bulling very much. I have the same experiences with saltwater fishes. Nowadays – I always put my newcomers in my refugium for a week – when the newcomer is introduced into the DT – no reaction from my old fish. I have introduce new fish without having the in the refugium – all this cases my largest wrasse start to bulling them directly – is a huge differences in behaviour from this fish.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ca1ore]

I think observation is a perfectly valid form of quarantine; though if a fish does show disease symptoms you will need some way to treat it. Seems to me there are pros and cons to every form of quarantine. I’ve been doing mostly observation for a while now. Yes, something can slip through, but pummeling a new fish with a cocktail of poisons has its downside as well.

 

[AcroNem]

I think observation is a perfectly valid form of quarantine; though if a fish does show disease symptoms you will need some way to treat it. Seems to me there are pros and cons to every form of quarantine. I’ve been doing mostly observation for a while now. Yes, something can slip through, but pummeling a new fish with a cocktail of poisons has its downside as well.

We pummel ourselves with small amounts of poisons all the time, for preventative treatments, or even for fun. I have never seen a skin scrape or gill clip from a fish that came from the wild that didn't have something in it that needed treatment. Could that fish be asymptomatic for a long time? Sure, but they still have parasites or something else that needs treatment. In my opinion and other quarantine aquarists at public aquariums opinion, prophylactic treatment done correctly is the safest and best policy. To treat every animal like it has every disease, so your displays end up with none of them.

 

[jda]

It is what I do. I call it isolation. I do not quarantine all of my inverts, corals and whatever for fish pathogens, so I have no illusions that some are probably in my tank. I prefer to have healthy fish that can fight off infection on their own. The isolation time gets them active, not shy, eating well (including pellets) and healthy. I will not treat unless I see something. Usually, there is another fish or two in there (YT Blue Damsel, Pygmy Angel) to show the new fish how to eat pellets.

Bottom line - remove the stress and you will have healthy fish.

 

[jtl]

I have two fish in quarantine right now. I am dosing with Copper Power and Metroplex. After 8 days of the therapeutic level (11 days total) I am going to do a fresh water dip to check for flukes and if all clear into the DT they go. If flukes are present than it will be another week in quarantine with new water. In the past I have done the ttm but that does nothing for velvet and urinoma which are becoming more common.

 

[Hot2na]

Hypo is good for most ectoparasites...and it does no harm short term...1.012 for 5 -7 days will take care of flukes...I'd at least do that.

 

[jtl]

It is what I do. I call it isolation. I do not quarantine all of my inverts, corals and whatever for fish pathogens, so I have no illusions that some are probably in my tank. I prefer to have healthy fish that can fight off infection on their own. The isolation time gets them active, not shy, eating well (including pellets) and healthy. I will not treat unless I see something. Usually, there is another fish or two in there (YT Blue Damsel, Pygmy Angel) to show the new fish how to eat pellets.

Bottom line - remove the stress and you will have healthy fish.

I agree that stress contributes to an outbreak and I really thought long and hard about just putting them in the DT which is what my very reputable lfs owner recommended. He does a 1 week observation and a Paraguard dip. Unlike most lfs I really trust him and he has been in business for 16 years, a life time in this hobby. My concern is the stress they are under being put into a new environment that could lower their immunity, especially since one of the fish is a tang. I have little doubt there is ich in my tank although it has never been noticed.

 

[jda]

Some fish go straight into my display. Leopard wrasses, for one. If I ever got another copperband butterfly. I don't do this for all fish, just ones that are horrible isolation/QT fish.

 

[ca1ore]

We pummel ourselves with small amounts of poisons all the time, for preventative treatments, or even for fun. I have never seen a skin scrape or gill clip from a fish that came from the wild that didn't have something in it that needed treatment. Could that fish be asymptomatic for a long time? Sure, but they still have parasites or something else that needs treatment. In my opinion and other quarantine aquarists at public aquariums opinion, prophylactic treatment done correctly is the safest and best policy. To treat every animal like it has every disease, so your displays end up with none of them.

That’s fine, and a reasonable position ... it’s just not what I do. I’ll stand my fish population up against anyone’s, even if there are certain concessions I have to make. I’d also not hold public aquaria up as the gold standard for fish health - at least, not most of the ones I have visited. I think it’s a balance between not allowing something really bad into your tank and allowing the immune system of the fish to do what evolution has intended for it to do. It’s funny to me that the perspective on QT seemingly has swung fully from no QT at all to medicate everything. I dont subscribe to either extreme.

But, it’s an old debate unlikely to be resolved here.

 

[jtl]

Hypo is good for most ectoparasites...and it does no harm short term...1.012 for 5 -7 days will take care of flukes...I'd at least do that.

A fresh water dip will usually indicate if there is a fluke problem. If there is treat with Prazipro, used by itself and following the instructions it is safe. Can even be used in the DT if necessary.

 

[jda]

This is going to sound very abstract and probably quite subjective, but your tank and the rock work will have a lot to do with stress and disease. People seem to like their "cave" and "arches" but the fish seem to prefer that you just stack rock up densely so that they can get back there and completely disappear. I stack my rock this way. I find that fish that can escape completely have less stress.

I only really worry about flukes on large Angelfish. FW dip and some prazi for them. Quick and easy.

Maybe it is just me, but I have had much better success since I switched to a stress-free paradigm from a pathogen killing one..

 

[Gareth elliott]

Opinion

But if going for a system of parasite management, i would probably not order shipped fish.

There is a lot of stress from 24 hours in a small bag, constant jostling. Stressed fish are often less likely to fight off an infection or disease, or could be the trigger that causes symptoms.

Human example would be shingles 50 years since chicken pox, suddenly end up in a weakened immune scenario, thats when the zoster virus suddenly strikes.

If the fish in question are not CP intolerant is another option that does not require the same exacting testing. Buy verified strength, know your water volume to be dosed and dose the required amount. Not 100% risk free but an ato and accurate measuring of tank and wc water can make this simpler than copper.

 

[jtl]

Opinion

But if going for a system of parasite management, i would probably not order shipped fish.

There is a lot of stress from 24 hours in a small bag, constant jostling. Stressed fish are often less likely to fight off an infection or disease, or could be the trigger that causes symptoms.

Human example would be shingles 50 years since chicken pox, suddenly end up in a weakened immune scenario, thats when the zoster virus suddenly strikes.

If the fish in question are not CP intolerant is another option that does not require the same exacting testing. Buy verified strength, know your water volume to be dosed and dose the required amount. Not 100% risk free but an ato and accurate measuring of tank and wc water can make this simpler than copper.

All fish are "shipped" it is just that some may spend more or less time in the lfs. I am admittedly not a religious QT person and I have never had ich, velvet or urinoma but I did lose a couple of fish to flukes one time before I even knew what they were.