Captive-Bred vs Wild ???

[evolved]

If you don't QT this fish or have not QT others in the tank then I would think a captive YT may be more susceptible to pathogens and wild parasites considering they have theoretically not built up immunities to these in the wild.

+1 ^ 100% correct.

Where's the science here?
Why do people buy CB clowns constantly if this is true? Nearly all clowns available in the trade are CB.

 

[sde1500]

if you treat and QT they’ll never be exposed to them in the first place

I'm not one in the no qt camp. But unequivocally stating that QT removes all chance of exposure is questionable at best. I find it highly unlikely fish in our tanks aren't at some point sicked with something, viral/bacterial/what ever, even after rigorous quarantines. If you can start a tank with sterile water, sterile rock, sterile sand, and sprout aglae galore, cyano, diatoms etc, your tank likely will have something that can infect a fish.

 

[Sump Crab]

Where's the science here?
Why do people buy CB clowns constantly if this is true? Nearly all clowns available in the trade are CB.

If you read my post closely you will notice I used words such as "may be" and "theoretically". I don't know of any "science" stating that my assumptions are true as far as fish go but I do think there is a resounding mountain of evidence regarding exposure to pathogens, disease, viruses, etcetera and building an immunity towards those. Think immunizations for humans and pets.

I am not making a statement but offering a differing opinion for the OP so that they can make a well informed decision.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Where's the science here?
Why do people buy CB clowns constantly if this is true? Nearly all clowns available in the trade are CB.

I have two captive bred, Conspicuous Angel and True Personifer Angel that are amazing! I also practice a 6 week QT process as I believe in running a parasite free reef. My thought process is that captive bred fish aren't exposed to the same conditions that wild caught fish are being in the ocean they have not built up their immunity to these parasites in comparison.

 

[shred5]

I would only adopt a child from an adoption center because they’ve been exposed to more germs from more people. I would not adopt a child who is from a single home because he might be at risk for infections when he goes out into the public. This is the argument you’re making. If you have any evidence to claim captive bred fish are less hardy im all ears. I’ve heard multiple people claim this without merit.

in regards to color, they have the same bright coloration as a wild caught specimen. Agree with other poster that when you first get them they have less color because they recently settled and we’re a clear fish just weeks earlier!

Ok tell me what would make a captive bred fish hardier?

If you buy from a breeder you have a very good chance of getting a disease free fish. That does not make them hardier though.

Now a retailer or wholesaler buys from a breeder and mixes them in with wild fish that certainly does not make them disease free.

I never once said do not buy aquacultured either. I fully think we should buy captive bred fish when possible even for more money. It is the future and should be supported.

 

[evolved]

If you read my post closely you will notice I used words such as "may be" and "theoretically". I don't know of any "science" stating that my assumptions are true as far as fish go but I do think there is a resounding mountain of evidence regarding exposure to pathogens, disease, viruses, etcetera and building an immunity towards those. Think immunizations for humans and pets.

I am not making a statement but offering a differing opinion for the OP so that they can make a well informed decision.

I have two captive bred, Conspicuous Angel and True Personifer Angel that are amazing! I also practice a 6 week QT process as I believe in running a parasite free reef. My though process is that captive bred fish aren't exposed to the same conditions that wild caught fish are being in the ocean they have not built up their immunity to these parasites in comparison.

Right, I well undestand the thought process. Everyone is quick to throw that out, yet has anyone actually studied it? Or even just ran some crude sense of an experiment?

I'll jump back to my comment about clownfish - if the CB really did led to weaker immunity, why have CB been so successful? Why doesn't everyone's weak immunity clownfish fall ill?

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Right, I well undestand the thought process. Everyone is quick to throw that out, yet has anyone actually studied it? Or even just ran some crude sense of an experiment?

I'll jump back to my comment about clownfish - if the CB really did led to weaker immunity, why have CB been so successful? Why doesn't everyone's weak immunity clownfish fall ill?

I spent much time educating myself on fish disease. Occupying myself with endless articles on trials and error, disease, treatment, past experiences of others and my own personal ones. Fish with healthy immune systems when exposed to pathogens/parasites who had symptoms and survived have formed a stronger tolerance and when re-exposed to same have the ability to overcome much quicker or not even show signs at all. There are many variables to each situation of course but this is what I believe to be factual as you're very much entitled to your difference of opinion.

 

[Sump Crab]

Right, I well undestand the thought process. Everyone is quick to throw that out, yet has anyone actually studied it? Or even just ran some crude sense of an experiment?

I'll jump back to my comment about clownfish - if the CB really did led to weaker immunity, why have CB been so successful? Why doesn't everyone's weak immunity clownfish fall ill?

Perhaps clownfish are a naturally robust species when considering parasites? Who knows. You keep on asking about studies that indicate if wild fish are more resistant to disease than captive bred ones. Considering that immunizations and exposures have proven to build immunities in humans, cats, dogs, etcetera wouldn't the burden of proof fall on the camp arguing against the idea that fish from the ocean are more resistant to disease than those reared in a sterile environment.

Seems as if both sides merely offer personal anecdotes as their main evidence. Ill just defer to my own opinion until I see anything concrete.

 

[mta_morrow]

Ya, this is a poorly thought out argument. The idea that captive bred fish have not been exposed to wild pathogens and parasites is clearly an easy one to understand. The idea that a child growing up in a single household has not been exposed to any infections or disease is ludicrous.

Spot on!

 

[evolved]

You keep on asking about studies that indicate if wild fish are more resistant to disease than captive bred ones.

I've only mentioned it twice...

Considering that immunizations and exposures have proven to build immunities in humans, cats, dogs, etcetera wouldn't the burden of proof fall on the camp arguing against the idea that fish from the ocean are more resistant to disease than those reared in a sterile environment.

Certainly fish immuity works the same way - no argument. But the (perhaps subtle?) question I am raising is, does it matter? Yes, CB fish should have less immunity fresh out of the gate, but how much weaker does it really end up being by the time they end up sold to a hobbyist? They're not raised in a sterile environment - the live foods they're fed definitely exposed them to some things. If you're buying them from any retailer, I can nearly guarantee they've been exposed to nearly all, if not all, of the nasties floating around in that stores systems, either by being looped in the same filtration system or just by simply cross contamination.
The analogy to clownfish is that if CB really produced zero immune systems, then we'd never see CB clownfish for sale and everyone would want to buy WC only. And that's definitely not the case.
I don't know who the burden of proof really lies on, but I'd argue the case study of prior CB fish (like clowns) holds more merit than everyone just dismissing CB fish, assuming they have no immune system.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

I've only mentioned it twice...

Certainly fish immuity works the same way - no argument. But the (perhaps subtle?) question I am raising is, does it matter? Yes, CB fish should have less immunity fresh out of the gate, but how much weaker does it really end up being by the time they end up sold to a hobbyist? They're not raised in a sterile environment - the live foods they're fed definitely exposed them to some things.
The analogy to clownfish is that if CB really produced zero immune systems, then we'd never see CB clownfish for sale and everyone would want to buy WC only. And that's definitely not the case.
I don't know who the burden of proof really lies on, but I'd argue the case study of prior CB fish (like clowns) holds more merit than everyone just dismissing CB fish, assuming they have no immune system.

CB species in general are hardy fish, so no argument there and obviously they do extremely well acclimating themselves into peoples aquariums. I am specifically speaking to immunity against protozoa infections and disease. Here is one personal experience I can contest too. I had an ich outbreak within the first 3 months of setting up my aquarium. I pulled the three, my gem, regal and scribbled and put them in QT and went fallow 76 days in display. While I was going through the QT process I decided to purchase my CB Conspicuous from Poma labs. All fish were QT for 6 weeks and I reintroduced them into my display. Approx 2 weeks later my conspicuous had several spots on his body but none of the other fish were showing any similar symptoms, then approx. another week later the conspicuous was covered in spots, flashing, scratching, etc. and still the 3 fish that were exposed previously to ich were perfectly fine. I found out later I had a cross contamination issue with equipment which is why the first fallow attempt fell through. Needless to say I pulled them out and went through whole process again. What a doozy that was!

 

[Sump Crab]

I've only mentioned it twice...

Certainly fish immuity works the same way - no argument. But the (perhaps subtle?) question I am raising is, does it matter? Yes, CB fish should have less immunity fresh out of the gate, but how much weaker does it really end up being by the time they end up sold to a hobbyist? They're not raised in a sterile environment - the live foods they're fed definitely exposed them to some things. If you're buying them from any retailer, I can nearly guarantee they've been exposed to nearly all, if not all, of the nasties floating around in that stores systems, either by being looped in the same filtration system or just by simply cross contamination.
The analogy to clownfish is that if CB really produced zero immune systems, then we'd never see CB clownfish for sale and everyone would want to buy WC only. And that's definitely not the case.
I don't know who the burden of proof really lies on, but I'd argue the case study of prior CB fish (like clowns) holds more merit than everyone just dismissing CB fish, assuming they have no immune system.

You are definitely correct that CB fish that are mixed with WC fish at a retailer have already been exposed so the damage is done (hardier or not) However OP was asking about captive YT from liveaquaria. These guys are from the Wisconsin facility and are specifically kept from WC fishes so they don't fall under this argument.

Truth is that there is no right and wrong in this hobby, each species is different and within that each fish is different. CB, WC who really cares. Just buy what you want to and enjoy your tank.

 

[#1Fellowreefer]

very well said and second that and agree 100% to what you just said..

That is not even close to what shred5 said. You're either A) buying a fish that has up until this point survived predation, competition for food, and numerous pathogens or B) buying a fish that has spent their entire short life in a very sterile tank, with near zero risk of being eaten, an abundance of food and extremely low risk of succumbing to some pathogen. I'd say that B is certainly better equipped to deal with aquarium life. Now does that make it more or less hardy is debatable I think, but I don't think it is a stretch to think that wild caught could deal with sickness a bit better.

And to answer OP, I think I would always choose CB. Why? It supports a growing industry that reduces the small fishing pressures this industry places on the reefs.

 

[RmSchuh]

I wonder if captive bred tangs would be less aggressive then wild caught. Don’t know if there is any information on that but would be a big decision for me. I think wild or captive bred what ever you choose comes down to aquaculture and supporting it. Just don’t think it really affects the reefs at the abundance of yellow tangs.

 

[flsalty]

I have mixed feelings. I do agree that CB probably have less immunity (less, not "none", I haven't seen anyone argue that they have no immunity system), but WC get put through a lot so perhaps they are equally susceptible to disease due to stress.

Quality depends on the breeder. Do they cull undesirable specimens, or do they just put them out there to grab the money? I think it's good to support responsible breeders. I'm already soured on designer clowns. If I see long finned yellow tangs or something stupid like that I'll be done supporting breeders.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

That is not even close to what shred5 said. You're either A) buying a fish that has up until this point survived predation, competition for food, and numerous pathogens or B) buying a fish that has spent their entire short life in a very sterile tank, with near zero risk of being eaten, an abundance of food and extremely low risk of succumbing to some pathogen. I'd say that B is certainly better equipped to deal with aquarium life. Now does that make it more or less hardy is debatable I think, but I don't think it is a stretch to think that wild caught could deal with sickness a bit better.

And to answer OP, I think I would always choose CB. Why? It supports a growing industry that reduces the small fishing pressures this industry places on the reefs.

I dont think yellow tangs have much resistance to parasites to begin with. if they get ich in the aquarium and are not treated, they are dying regardless of the source.

 

[jaganshi066]

I disagree with them being hardier.

A fish that is captive bred that is never subjected to fish diseases would not have a resistance to one. How could it? Now it is thrown into a system that has fish from all over. If a fish was never subjected to ich how could it possibly have a resistance to it. We know fish can build up a resistance to it.

I do think we should support captive bred fish and buy them when we can. Plus they are already adapted to aquarium life. I just do not think they are as hardy.

100% agree, they aren’t as strong

 

[jaganshi066]

Is it me or do the captive bred YTs seem more dull in color compared to the wild caught?

Yes, more dull in color and have some issues too

 

[jaganshi066]

I would only adopt a child from an adoption center because they’ve been exposed to more germs from more people. I would not adopt a child who is from a single home because he might be at risk for infections when he goes out into the public. This is the argument you’re making. If you have any evidence to claim captive bred fish are less hardy im all ears. I’ve heard multiple people claim this without merit.

in regards to color, they have the same bright coloration as a wild caught specimen. Agree with other poster that when you first get them they have less color because they recently settled and we’re a clear fish just weeks earlier!

This makes no sense

 

[jaganshi066]

Ya, this is a poorly thought out argument. The idea that captive bred fish have not been exposed to wild pathogens and parasites is clearly an easy one to understand. The idea that a child growing up in a single household has not been exposed to any infections or disease is ludicrous.

Maybe if you were comparing adopting a bubble boy vs a child from an adoption center lol

Yea the argument makes no sense and sounds like the person is just one sided instead of looking at the facts