Carbon Capture in Reef Aquariums

[Treefer32]

Crazy! I have 4 gyres running at 60-70% speed mounted at the surface, I have rapid surface movement thinking it would bring in more oxygen and exhale more CO2. But aquariums are not mammals. Lol. I may actually causing my tank's ph to lower because of running exuberant surface agitation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Crazy! I have 4 gyres running at 60-70% speed mounted at the surface, I have rapid surface movement thinking it would bring in more oxygen and exhale more CO2. But aquariums are not mammals. Lol. I may actually causing my tank's ph to lower because of running exuberant surface agitation.

Yes. lol

 

[Treefer32]

I want to thank everyone for all the feedback. It caused me to take a step back and assess things. Based on all the advice, information, and feedback I have some actions I can take to hopefully resolve some of the issues.

1. running my skimmer hose to outside air has raised my low ph at night from 7.50 to 7.74 (a whole .24 increase) and my daytime high from 7.7 to 7.9. I was hoping to hit 8.0 but, at least I'm now in the safer range for all my livestock.

2. I'm also switching food from my homemade food, to commercial frozen mysis and Krill cubes. Feeding what my fish consume in the first 5 minutes, which was around 7-8 cubes - this removes all the coral food and aminos I had added into the food.

3. I'll test after 48 hours of doing this to see what's happening to my nutrients. I believe the nitrate and phosphate issues I have are most likely due to my food. As they just started raising when I made a new batch of food and I may have added too much coral food to the food mixture.

4. If nutrients start coming down, then I know it's my food. I can then reduce my vodka dosing regiment to hopefully low enough levels that I get another minor PH bump from reduced bacterial populations.

5. Next, I will most likely reposition my Gyres so they are pushing water up toward the surface vs. agitating the surface directly. This should reduce surface tension, and hopefully increase the quality of air being sucked into the tank.

6. Depending on the results of the above changes, I will implement an air pump that also pulls outside air in and send it to the skimmer or have a diffuser that difuses oxygen directly into the tank to get ph over 8. At this point I just want to get it over 8.00 day and night. whether it gets to 8.2 or 8.0 is irrelevant to me at this time.

I'll monitor doing these changes one at a time and continue logging alk, nitrates and phosphates as the ph changes.

One side note with the increased ph I've noticed additional growth in corals just in the last two days. One coral that had lain dormant forever, has added close to half inch of new growth. The coral has been the same size for almost a year. So, I'm hopeful these changes will have much larger impacts as nutrients go down, ph gets better, and I have to increase alk dosing (raising PH) due to hopefully increased alk consumption.

 

[Treefer32]

I also found another issue! My top off water was refilling (I fill 75 gallons for top off at once to avoid TDS creep) and I tested the TDS after a few gallons had filled. It came out Higher than what comes out of my RO unit. RO Unit TDS was around 20 and out of the DI resin 28.

So, I'm thinking I've added 75 gallons of none-zero TDS water. It probably doesn't contribute too much to my problems (depending what the TDS is composed of), but certainly not helping them. I'll be replacing my DI resin as well.

The plus side. I tested my nitrates and phosphates yesterday. In 3 days time of feeding cube vs. my high nutrient home made food,phosphates fell from .34 to .30 and Nitrates fell from 65 to 58. Basically 10% drops in 3 days.

If that carries through, I should see phosphates down to .22 and nitrates down to 46 by Saturday.

Here's to Fingers crossed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I also found another issue! My top off water was refilling (I fill 75 gallons for top off at once to avoid TDS creep) and I tested the TDS after a few gallons had filled. It came out Higher than what comes out of my RO unit. RO Unit TDS was around 20 and out of the DI resin 28.

So, I'm thinking I've added 75 gallons of none-zero TDS water. It probably doesn't contribute too much to my problems (depending what the TDS is composed of), but certainly not helping them. I'll be replacing my DI resin as well.

The plus side. I tested my nitrates and phosphates yesterday. In 3 days time of feeding cube vs. my high nutrient home made food,phosphates fell from .34 to .30 and Nitrates fell from 65 to 58. Basically 10% drops in 3 days.

If that carries through, I should see phosphates down to .22 and nitrates down to 46 by Saturday.

Here's to Fingers crossed.

Let us know how things progress!

 

[Treefer32]

Let us know how things progress!

Oddly pH loes have continued to rise at night since changing where my skimmer hose is. The first couple of days pH lows were 7.74. last night and this morning the low was 7.83. With the high maxing out at 7.9. alk stays steady at 8.4. We'll see what this weekend brings.

 

[Treefer32]

I'm going to ask another question as I try to understand the complexities of CO2 and PH. As I'm reading up on Fish best habitat, a lot of fish requirements state they must be in water with a ph of 8.1 to 8.4.

Now, I understand that coral skeletons lay new calcium carbonate skeletons faster at higher PHs. I don't necessarily understand the full chemical processes, but I can accept that as a fact that coral skeletons grow faster at higher PH up to a ph of 8.4.

No one really talks about why fish need a PH of 8.1 to 8.4. Do their skeletons degrade over time, do their bodies implode? Why does PH matter to fish? Once Nitrates are under control for a couple months I'd like to increase my fish population for more movement and more schooling fish if possible. Which means added a dozen or so fish. But, before I do, I need to understand why PH matters to fish? Why is a PH of 7.5 or 7.7 toxic to fish? (and how toxic is it?)

Why are my 15 fish doing o.k. in the lower PH water. They've been at this low of a level for at least 6 months, maybe longer, depending on when my previous PH probe went bad.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Beware of random recommendations on the internet that may have little basis in reality.

I’ve never seen any evidence that a marine fish that is otherwise suitable in a reef tank does not do perfectly well at any pH values normally attained in reef tanks (say, 7.7 to 8.6).

 

[Treefer32]

1/27 - Updates:
2 primary changes this week: - Feeding commercial frozen Cubes of Mysis and Krill - A total of 7-8 cubes per day.
Vodka Dosing - Upped 10 ml per day to 50 ml per day vs. 40 per day 2 weeks ago

PH remaining consistent at 7.77 at night and 7.9 up to 7.93 during the day.

Starting Values:
1/19 - Nitrates: 66.5 ppm (Hanna High range test)
1/19 - Phosphates: .34 ppm (Hanna ULR Phosphate test)
1/19 - Alk: 8.7

1/22 - Nitrates: 58.8 ppm
1/22 - Phosphates: .30
1/22 - Alk: 8.5
1/22 - Slightly increased Alk Dosing - from 96 ml per day to 120 ml per day

1/27 - Nitrates: 57.3 ppm
1/27 - Phosphates: .04 ppm
1/27 - Alk: 9.1

I attribute the loss of phosphates from the switchover from my home made food to cubes of food. I don't understand why Nitrates dropped then stabilized?

 

[Dburr1014]

1/27 - Updates:
2 primary changes this week: - Feeding commercial frozen Cubes of Mysis and Krill - A total of 7-8 cubes per day.
Vodka Dosing - Upped 10 ml per day to 50 ml per day vs. 40 per day 2 weeks ago

PH remaining consistent at 7.77 at night and 7.9 up to 7.93 during the day.

Starting Values:
1/19 - Nitrates: 66.5 ppm (Hanna High range test)
1/19 - Phosphates: .34 ppm (Hanna ULR Phosphate test)
1/19 - Alk: 8.7

1/22 - Nitrates: 58.8 ppm
1/22 - Phosphates: .30
1/22 - Alk: 8.5
1/22 - Slightly increased Alk Dosing - from 96 ml per day to 120 ml per day

1/27 - Nitrates: 57.3 ppm
1/27 - Phosphates: .04 ppm
1/27 - Alk: 9.1

I attribute the loss of phosphates from the switchover from my home made food to cubes of food. I don't understand why Nitrates dropped then stabilized?

It actually makes sense.
Lower po4 means less available.
So now you are being limited by it and making no3 slow down.
If you want to speed it up again, dose po4.
But, I probably wouldn't in my tank.
See what the experts say. (like randy)

 

[Clownfishy]

I fully recommend measuring your C02 levels in your house. The best bit of equipment I purchased for my reef tank was not reef related at all, it was a C02 monitor. As soon as my C02 levels rise towards the 1000ppm, I guarantee my pH struggles to rise. I open the windows a little and let in the fresh air and bingo, the pH issue is resolved.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

1/27 - Updates:
2 primary changes this week: - Feeding commercial frozen Cubes of Mysis and Krill - A total of 7-8 cubes per day.
Vodka Dosing - Upped 10 ml per day to 50 ml per day vs. 40 per day 2 weeks ago

PH remaining consistent at 7.77 at night and 7.9 up to 7.93 during the day.

Starting Values:
1/19 - Nitrates: 66.5 ppm (Hanna High range test)
1/19 - Phosphates: .34 ppm (Hanna ULR Phosphate test)
1/19 - Alk: 8.7

1/22 - Nitrates: 58.8 ppm
1/22 - Phosphates: .30
1/22 - Alk: 8.5
1/22 - Slightly increased Alk Dosing - from 96 ml per day to 120 ml per day

1/27 - Nitrates: 57.3 ppm
1/27 - Phosphates: .04 ppm
1/27 - Alk: 9.1

I attribute the loss of phosphates from the switchover from my home made food to cubes of food. I don't understand why Nitrates dropped then stabilized?

FWIW, I don't think the change from 66 ppm nitrate to 57 ppm nitrate is even necessarily real and not test variation, but assuming its real, nutrient values will adjust after food changes.

More confusing is why phosphate would drop that much. Vodka wouldn't do that. Are you using a binder?

 

[Treefer32]

No binders. I think the drop would be less phosphates rich food throughout the week and I run an algae turf scrubber. That's overflowing with hair algae right now. But I've always been running it. So not a change really. I just think less input from the switch in food led to the scrubber actually exporting the phosphates. I don't know how much nitrates hair algae consumes, but I'd bet hair algae consumes more phosphates than nitrates.

I'm hoping my denitraters actually kick in someday and start consuming them.

 

[Dburr1014]

I don't know how much nitrates hair algae consumes, but I'd bet hair algae consumes more phosphates than nitrates.

I'm hoping my denitraters actually kick in someday and start consuming them.

I think the only thing that will reduce phosphates more than nitrates would be gfo.
I'm pretty sure any living thing would consume more nitrates that phosphates.

 

[Treefer32]

I'm not using any gfo or lanthanum chloride, I've not dosed lc in 6 months and I've never used gfo. So curious why phosphates would crash in 6 days and nitrates remain the same.

All I changed is switching to cubed frozen mysys and krill. I feed 8 cubes a day and a sheet of nori per day. I have my flake / pellet feeder feeding 8 times per day. Not in the largest setting but supplemental feedings for my anthias etc. Everything I feed now is getting eaten. I do run a reef mat 1200. I don't know if that exports phosphates but I've been running it for 6 months as well. I'm running aquachar, I don't know if that would remove phosphates, I was told it would eventually grow bacteria that removes nitrates after 6+8 weeks. It's been about 3-4.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm not using any gfo or lanthanum chloride, I've not dosed lc in 6 months and I've never used gfo. So curious why phosphates would crash in 6 days and nitrates remain the same.

All I changed is switching to cubed frozen mysys and krill. I feed 8 cubes a day and a sheet of nori per day. I have my flake / pellet feeder feeding 8 times per day. Not in the largest setting but supplemental feedings for my anthias etc. Everything I feed now is getting eaten. I do run a reef mat 1200. I don't know if that exports phosphates but I've been running it for 6 months as well. I'm running aquachar, I don't know if that would remove phosphates, I was told it would eventually grow bacteria that removes nitrates after 6+8 weeks. It's been about 3-4.

I don't see anything noted that would cause a big phosphate drop. I'd just keep monitoring.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I would absolutely Ditch the Soda Lime, it is a dangerous substance. If the MSDS on it isn’t enough to scare you, go to an Air Products Company, and ask what you need to sign off on to buy the stuff. Get a Cheap Two Port Large Air Pump, from a Fish Store, that can be taken apart. Take it apart, protect the coils with something, “Metal, piece of Wood,” and drill 3/16” holes in the case, pointing at at the coil(s). Add Lee’s Rigid 1/4” Tubing glued in. Reassemble the Pump, sealing it with aquarium silicone, including the old air intake area. Make a Manifold out of 1/2” PVC. Run 3/8” clear Vinyl Hose outside. If there is a hazard of Chemical Spray Drift from a neighbors yard, make a simple filter.

 

[Treefer32]

I would absolutely Ditch the Soda Lime, it is a dangerous substance. If the MSDS on it isn’t enough to scare you, go to an Air Products Company, and ask what you need to sign off on to buy the stuff. Get a Cheap Two Port Large Air Pump, from a Fish Store, that can be taken apart. Take it apart, protect the coils with something, “Metal, piece of Wood,” and drill 3/16” holes in the case, pointing at at the coil(s). Add Lee’s Rigid 1/4” Tubing glued in. Reassemble the Pump, sealing it with aquarium silicone, including the old air intake area. Make a Manifold out of 1/2” PVC. Run 3/8” clear Vinyl Hose outside. If there is a hazard of Chemical Spray Drift from a neighbors yard, make a simple filter.

I'm not using Soda Lime, not sure where you got that from? I use Baked Baking Soda and calcium chloride (separately).

 

[Treefer32]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

I retested today, the nitrate test last Friday didn't sit well with me. It turned pink as soon as I added the reagent to the vial, which it's never done before. I did a new test and it stayed clear for the first minute as usual. So, I redid phosphate, nitrate, and Alk just to see where things were at after increasing alk and Calcium dosing and letting things be over the weekend. This is much more in line (almost exactly) where I expected things to be Friday:

Phosphate slightly up (well within margin of error) .06 from .03 ppm
Nitrate down from 65 to 47.6 (Outside of margin of error I would assume)
Alk dropped from 9.1 to 8.7 (this is after increasing alk dosing by 1 ml per hour)

This tells me that alk consumption is rising by corals and or coralline algae, which, in turn implies, an acceptable decrease of phosphates and nitrates for corals to begin their growth processes.

I would anticipate if everything remains consistent, next Sunday I would anticipate nitrates being down to 20-25, with phosphates remaining consistent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Predictions of nutrient changes are tricky, but so far so good.