Carbon Dosing (Vinegar only) and skimmate

[Electrobes]

So after discussing the Bacteria and carbon dosing methods I've decided to halt Prodibio dosings and switch to just carbon dosing via Vinegar. Using the dosing chart for vinegar users (I am on day two but upped the dose to 6.4mL instead of the recommended 3.4mL considering I am already carbon dosing) I've noticed something a bit immediate. My skimmate production has been much higher, and it's really good quality skimmate to boot.

My question is just how immediate can carbon dosing cause the bacteria to multiply? My thought is that it seems pretty quick considering my skimmate production, and the fact that vinegar is dosed daily.

Am I right in thinking this way?

 

[Reefing Madness]

Yup, it will skim some really nasty stuff right quickly.

 

[mike007]

What you are seeing is the vinegar is purging nutrients from your system. The tank should already have the beneficial bacteria's.

 

[Electrobes]

Mike, vinegar purging nutrients from the tank?

Of course the tank has bacteria, the reason we dose carbon is because it's typically the limiting factor for bacteria growth (Assuming available nitrates and phosphates are sufficiently present) My question was more towards the speed at which bacteria multiply when given a carbon source.. To later get picked up by the skimmer.

 

[Reef Fever]

how does vinegar dosing affect your pH? do you have to do something to keep it from dropping it?

 

[Electrobes]

Reef Fever: Because I am at the beginning of the dosing schedule, I don't yet dose nearly enough to have a lowering effect on the tank. My pH in general remains between 8.2-8.4. Even when I arrive at the larger doses, I am not too worried as my dosing pump will split the dosages per day minimally.

 

[mike007]

Yes I agree It will Increase your bacteria which will help export your phosphates and nitrates through skimming and water changes. I think that it is a gradual change that will take time to see any real results.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Your nitrates a bit high? I know the vinegar will cause the skimmes to go nuts, just like someone using vodka, but this usually takes a bit of time, as the ramp up gets enough into the system. But if its already skimming nasties, theres enough in there.

 

[DRThompson]

Mike, vinegar purging nutrients from the tank?

Of course the tank has bacteria, the reason we dose carbon is because it's typically the limiting factor for bacteria growth (Assuming available nitrates and phosphates are sufficiently present) My question was more towards the speed at which bacteria multiply when given a carbon source.. To later get picked up by the skimmer.

The heterotrophic bacteria that you are feeding with your carbon dosing will double in about 20 min, best case scenario.

 

[Electrobes]

Reefing Madness - Unfortunately I don't have a good test kit (I don't have a problem with algaes, cyano, or anything like that) as I've never felt I needed one. I believe I have one from API, but that's more to check if I have a problem, and need to investigate it further. My one factor for this specific situation (The skimmer producing super amounts of quality skimmate... not going nuts as in reacting with something more directly) is that I gravel vac'd using my Eheim Gravel Vac Pro (I have marine gravel for my substrate... I was tired of sand being blown away and I now have an acrylic aquarium, I was worried about scratches.). This tool catches larger debris from the gravel bed, but it tosses the "fog of funk" back into the water column. I am going to venture a guess and correlate the gravel clean and the addition of vinegar to the tank as factors that may have produced the super amounts of quality skimmate. My other kink into this theory is the weirdness of my sump (Where the skimmer is placed). My return pump is also the only flow to my display. I use two Sea Swirls to direct about 2300GPH into the tank, which means the skimmer in the sump gets a constant flow of fresh display water. The skimmer will never outpace the flow into the sump, always having access to funkified water.

This is why I was asking about the quickness of bacteria to multiply, given the best circumstances/environment. I think, given the way my reef tank is set up, I do provide the best situation for both the bacteria to flourish AND for it to be picked up by the skimmer.

DRThompson - Thanks! This fuels my theory a bit more.

A thought: I know, for the most part, we reefers who carbon dose typically do it consistently, in terms of amount. We typically start of slow (Adding a little) and then eventually reach peak amounts... and stay there. My thought is to be more variable in dosing, mainly in reaction to what the skimmer produces. Instead of consistently adding a carbon source everyday, I figure I could just peak at the skimmer to see where I'm at. If it isn't producing all that much skimmate, I should probably lower my dose (If dose at all). This would limit overdosing the carbon source that could fuel problematic algae. This would cause more work for the reefer, but I figure since we look at our tanks often enough, taking a gander at the skimmer wouldn't cost us much.

My problem is I don't know just how much my own somewhat unique setup makes this thought more suitable, versus the more common set up....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is why I was asking about the quickness of bacteria to multiply, given the best circumstances/environment. I think, given the way my reef tank is set up, I do provide the best situation for both the bacteria to flourish AND for it to be picked up by the skimmer.

DRThompson - Thanks! This fuels my theory a bit more.

A thought: I know, for the most part, we reefers who carbon dose typically do it consistently, in terms of amount. We typically start of slow (Adding a little) and then eventually reach peak amounts... and stay there. My thought is to be more variable in dosing, mainly in reaction to what the skimmer produces. Instead of consistently adding a carbon source everyday, I figure I could just peak at the skimmer to see where I'm at. If it isn't producing all that much skimmate, I should probably lower my dose (If dose at all). This would limit overdosing the carbon source that could fuel problematic algae. This would cause more work for the reefer, but I figure since we look at our tanks often enough, taking a gander at the skimmer wouldn't cost us much.

My problem is I don't know just how much my own somewhat unique setup makes this thought more suitable, versus the more common set up....

I don't think anyone knows how fast the bacteria ramp up with organic carbon dosing in any given system.

IMO, the table of dosing rate is very conservative in terms of how slow it is raised. When I've ramped up, it was much faster.

I think it is a fine "experiment" to judge the dose based on skimmate, but I personally don't think that will work. Too many other factors, and you may not really visible notice that big of a change in skimmate anway.

FWIW, I never measure nutrients. I judged my dose based on how the tank looked. Since I have lots of other export methods working at the same time, vinegar is just one part of many (macroalgae, lots of live rock, skimming, GFO, GAC).

 

[Electrobes]

Good points Randy, I too often like to think simplistically. It shows In my filtration method.. Giant skimmer, 10% weekly water changes, and carbon dosing... That's it.

I'll just consider this an experiment and keep an eye on how things progress from here, couldn't hurt anyway. I'll keep a log of it on my aquaPlanner Pro app.

Thanks again for everyone's help, y'all!

 

[Tradewinds]

I found thread that has the "dosing chart for vinegar users," but have a question.

Looking at the example for a 150 gallon tank, week 1 suggests using 4.8. Is this 4.8 ml?

How quickly can the vinegar be added?

 

[Electrobes]

Tradewinds, here you go: Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

 

[Electrobes]

Randy - I know you say the rate to which vinegar is raised (On the chart) is pretty conservative, but what do you think of the endpoint dosage (The largest dose, that I assume stays at that dosage from then on)? Is that a max dose overall, or a conservative max dose, given a (Boy, this is going to be vague and I apologize!) a high bioload/stocked tank?

 

[Tradewinds]

Tradewinds, here you go: Reefkeeping Magazine - Vinegar Dosing Methodology for the Marine Aquarium

Thank you Electrobes

 

[TheClark]

Randy - I know you say the rate to which vinegar is raised (On the chart) is pretty conservative, but what do you think of the endpoint dosage (The largest dose, that I assume stays at that dosage from then on)? Is that a max dose overall, or a conservative max dose, given a (Boy, this is going to be vague and I apologize!) a high bioload/stocked tank?

I am not Randy, no chemist, but I have layman experience with this method so here it is FWIW

There probably is no max dose. Rather the ceiling is found with your test kits.

Once you hit the right dose, the nitrates plummet. It is truly amazing 'what, 0 nitrates? when did that happen!!??'.

At that point the articles recommend you cut the dosing in half. I lowered mine about 10% and check nitrates now and then.

For me I needed phosphate removal too beyond vinegar dosing, rocks seem to be leaching phosphate.

For pH, I mix kalk into the vinegar. 1/4 cup kalk into a gallon of vinegar.

To me the results are truly amazing even if kind of old news it still gets me excited remembering that big drop to 0 nitrates.

I dose 130 mls per day into a 500 gallon system.

 

[Reefing Madness]

The Nitrates don't plummet per say, they gradually start to come down, and will take a week or 2 to actually become 0, if thats what your after. There is a cap to where your PH will go nuts, using vinegar, and you can actually hurt the system goin with to much, but that is a hard number to hit.

 

[TheClark]

The Nitrates don't plummet per say, they gradually start to come down, and will take a week or 2 to actually become 0, if thats what your after. There is a cap to where your PH will go nuts, using vinegar, and you can actually hurt the system goin with to much, but that is a hard number to hit.

No kidding, that was a surprise to me, a pleasant one. I had almost given up thinking vinegar dosing was not working. Then BOOM! for whatever reason. but yeah I suppose that most people don't have that experience.

Kind of funny, I had this low range nitrate kit. Did not need it for a loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnngggg time. Until the carbon kicked in.

 

[Electrobes]

Wow TheClark, either you have a lot of phosphates or low nitrates, assuming bacteria consumes nitrates to phosphates at 15:1.

I really wish I tested the tank prior to starting carbon dosing but oh well. I really should be testing anyway, mainly for my curiosity, but I just made an online order and won't need another one for months.