Carbon dosing with distilled white vinager.

[Reefering1]

I haven't got a skimmer, and I add vinegar.

Do you add vineagar for nutrient reduction(like the op wants to use it for) or just bacteria/ coral feeding? I thought the skimmer was required to skim bacteria and remove the nutrients.(?) Or does it just dissapear?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Do you add vineagar for nutrient reduction(like the op wants to use it for) or just bacteria/ coral feeding? I thought the skimmer was required to skim bacteria and remove the nutrients.(?) Or does it just disappear?

Most folks using organic carbon dosing skim, but it can also be beneficial if not skimming. It converts inorganic nutrients into bacteria that are food for filter feeders.

It can also directly provide energy to corals, sponges, and a lot of other organisms that can use acetate directly.

 

[Miami Reef]

I think if you don’t have a skimmer, you’ll need to dose much less than someone who does. The bacteria need to get exported somehow. You might find they will grow on rocks or in piping if the dose is too high.

I think a skimmer is a much better idea when carbon dosing. I notice my skimmer pulls out much more junk when carbon dosing.

You can carbon dose without a skimmer, but go slow to make sure there isn’t unsightly bacterial growth.

 

[Reefering1]

Most folks using organic carbon dosing skim, but it can also be beneficial if not skimming. It converts inorganic nutrients into bacteria that are food for filter feeders.

It can also directly provide energy to corals, sponges, and a lot of other organisms that can use acetate directly.

But if in a newer tank w/ limited filter feeders and a goal of nutrient reduction, such as is the op's, what happens to the bacteria that assimilated the nutrients long term with no skimming if left in the water column? Alternatively, if there enough consumers I can see the benefit of carbon dosing without the skimmer?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I haven't got a skimmer, and I add vinegar.

This is interesting as I always equated carbon dosing with the need of a skimmer. How are you exporting? Do you see any build up of slime on the substrate?

 

[Garf]

Do you add vineagar for nutrient reduction

Yes, and to increase kalk potency, works great. I presume it's growing bacteria on my bag of sand that I remove weekly. I add 30 mls vinegar a day in kalkwasser in a 60 gallon.

 

[Garf]

Do you see any build up of slime on the substrate?

No. A little on the glass occasionally instead of algae.

 

[Reefering1]

Yes, and to increase kalk potency, works great. I presume it's growing bacteria on my bag of sand that I remove weekly. I add 30 mls vinegar a day in kalkwasser in a 60 gallon.

Ok that makes sense, it has to go somewhere.. now about increasing kalk potency, I didn't know that. How does that work?

 

[Garf]

now about increasing kalk potency

Exceeding the limewater evaporation limit

Mind blown. Got to the 90DKH solution before it was all dripped into the tank. A few calcium crystals added, dissolved in 1 pint(ish) 1/3 teaspoon added, dissolved after quick stir; I’ll keep hold of this and see if it’s stable. pH of resulting solution is 8.05ish pH of startup saltwater is...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Formulator]

That is fine.

The problem was when some users were joking underage people sneaking alcoholic substances. Randy gave a kind reminder of the TOS. You didn’t say anything out of line.

Sorry! Understood.

 

[Miami Reef]

Sorry! Understood.

No worries. Sometimes jokes can unintentionally cross the line. You didn’t do anything on purpose.

 

[cdemoss01]

how often do you do water changes ? A steady regime of water changes can help drastically

edit: I would test your water supply also, and then the saltwater mix

Not consistently but the tank is someone healthy except for the nitrates. Usually get one once a month although sometimes my parents don't have time to take me to get saltwater.

 

[Reefering1]

Excessive nitrate is one of the most basic reasons to do water changes. Do them, get a skimmer, you may not even need to carbon dose. I don't think your tank has enough going on to carbon dose, for nutrient reduction, without a skimmer(you need to export the bacteria that you're feeding). And you need test kits for nitrate and phosphate. You need to be able to test on your schedule. Testing is imperative because it's easy to bottom out nutrients(starving coral,inviting dinos...)

 

[cdemoss01]

Excessive nitrate is one of the most basic reasons to do water changes. Do them, get a skimmer, you may not even need to carbon dose. I don't think your tank has enough going on to carbon dose, for nutrient reduction, without a skimmer(you need to export the bacteria that you're feeding). And you need test kits for nitrate and phosphate. You need to be able to test on your schedule. Testing is imperative because it's easy to bottom out nutrients(starving coral,inviting dinos...)

Alright thank you.

 

[John Biddle]

That said, there are other benefits to carbon dosing, so it is a fine option. Just make sure you are committed to it and understand the additional nitrate dosing that may be required when you get to the ultra-low nutrient state.

I don't understand this. When NO3 starts to drop, stop increasing the dosage, and as NO3 approaches your target, back off the dosage so NO3 stays stable where you want it. I see how you could accidentally bottom out, if you're not testing frequently, but recording your test results along with the dates and dosage amount easily gives you a good trend line, so you can predict the future of NO3 in your tank (more or less).

 

[Formulator]

I don't understand this. When NO3 starts to drop, stop increasing the dosage, and as NO3 approaches your target, back off the dosage so NO3 stays stable where you want it. I see how you could accidentally bottom out, if you're not testing frequently, but recording your test results along with the dates and dosage amount easily gives you a good trend line, so you can predict the future of NO3 in your tank (more or less).

That would assume that the tank is carbon limited and the bacteria will stop consuming nitrate without your vinegar/vodka input. I found that not to be the case once I had an established denitrifying bacteria population. There were plenty of other carbon sources to keep them consuming nitrate at a healthy rate, which then led to a nitrate limited state and an excess of phosphate. It is a delicate balancing act between carbon, nitrate, and phosphate. Some folks may be lucky enough that they can control the system with carbon adjustments only, but it was not the case in my experience and I am still nitrate limited 2 years after completely stopping carbon dosing. I also know that my experience is not unique and several other folks have experienced the same with carbon dosing.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

That would assume that the tank is carbon limited and the bacteria will stop consuming nitrate without your vinegar/vodka input. I found that not to be the case once I had an established denitrifying bacteria population. There were plenty of other carbon sources to keep them consuming nitrate at a healthy rate, which then led to a nitrate limited state and an excess of phosphate. It is a delicate balancing act between carbon, nitrate, and phosphate. Some folks may be lucky enough that they can control the system with carbon adjustments only, but it was not the case in my experience and I am still nitrate limited 2 years after completely stopping carbon dosing. I also know that my experience is not unique and several other folks have experienced the same with carbon dosing.

Interesting, I'd like to hear more testimonies on this subject.

I'm curious if the higher nitrates in some tanks are simply stagnant and required some means to remove it, while others through heavy feeding and bioload need a maintenance dose to maintain a particular margin.

Can bacteria that is no longer being fed organic carbon via introduction continue to survive?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That would assume that the tank is carbon limited and the bacteria will stop consuming nitrate without your vinegar/vodka input. I found that not to be the case once I had an established denitrifying bacteria population.

I don’t think this is likely what happened, and it is certainly not a common case for anyone to see nitrate continue to fall well after stopping organic carbon.

I think all reef tanks and the ocean itself are carbon limited and they should be.

Denitrification requires organics. Consumption of nitrate in the absence of organics to drive the process is an energy consuming process of no real value to bacteria.

 

[Formulator]

I don’t think this is likely what happened, and it is certainly not a common case for anyone to see nitrate continue to fall well after stopping organic carbon.

I think all reef tanks and the ocean itself are carbon limited and they should be.

Denitrification requires organics. Consumption of nitrate in the absence of organics to drive the process is an energy consuming process of no real value to bacteria.

So what is consuming the nitrate that I have to dose every day to stay above zero NO3 and why does the consumption of nitrate result in a PO4 decrease?

This paper suggests some forms of solid organic waste, such as corn cob and wheat straw achieved comparable nitrogen removal performance to acetate as carbon sources. Of course the application considered in the paper is different, but the microbes’ metabolic processes are essentially the same we are utilizing with carbon dosing in our tanks.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135422012374

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

All photosynthetic organisms in your tank are consuming nitrate (or other source of N).

Not sure why you are asking about other carbon sources, but any metabolizable organic that is deficient in N can be used. Vinegar and vodka are cheap, pure, and invisible after dosing.