Carbon Proven to Cause HLLE in Tangs

stunreefer · Jan 10, 2015

Saltwater Smarts just released an excerpt from Jay Hemdal's new ebook on fish diseases, which describes a study the Toledo Zoo performed proving that carbon can directly cause HLLE in tangs.

Does this mean to never run carbon in your tank if you're keeping tangs? No.

I took that we can still run a high quality hard carbon with tangs assuming we have an efficient protein skimmer running. Better yet some form of mechanical filtration (filter socks, filter pads, etc.) in use as well to help remove carbon fines.

Aquaph8 · Jan 10, 2015

I run a way oversized skimmer while using Rox carbon and I can really see where it picks up a black color after carbon is changed. I run it passively in a mesh bag, no reactor and rinse well too. I've always agreed with this claim but still feel other things like stray voltage and poor diet could also be causing the same issues. Thanks for the link.

stunreefer · Jan 10, 2015

Aquaph8 said:
I run a way oversized skimmer while using Rox carbon and I can really see where it picks up a black color after carbon is changed. I run it passively in a mesh bag, no reactor and rinse well too.

:thumb: I think the main issue with carbon is people cheaping out and using the soft stuff which releases crazy amounts of fines, and placing it into a reactor tumbling the heck out of it causing it to break down [into more fines]. I've never ran carbon in a reactor before, only passively.

Aquaph8 said:
I've always agreed with this claim but still feel other things like stray voltage and poor diet could also be causing the same issues. Thanks for the link.

A quote from the link: "However, a multitude of unproven causes have been presented by various people. Commonly, stray electrical currents and vitamin deficiencies are cited as causes, but one of the studies mentioned above ruled these out as common causes."

So one of the studies ruled it out as a common cause, but certainly didn't go on to say that it cannot cause it. I for one believe that stray voltage can and will cause all kinds of other issues, not reserved to tangs but with other fishes and corals as well.

Aquaph8 · Jan 10, 2015

I once heard, not sure it fits true or not. that HLLE has been found in wild fish too. If true, that would mean that theres definitely something more going on with specific species on top off captive care issues. Have you ever heard of these claims?

stunreefer · Jan 10, 2015

I've personally seen what I would describe as HLLE on wild fishes while diving. I chalked it up to a likely Hexamita infestation, however it's so difficult to pinpoint something as such. What does non-native ballast water do to fishes when dumped? What does oil/fuel/fertilizer runoff do to fishes? And so on. So yes, it exists in nature, and likely no one is running crappy carbon through NSW in the area

So many variables, so little time!

Aquaph8 · Jan 10, 2015

I completely agree, it's always great to hear your thoughts and chat fish

saltyhog · Jan 10, 2015

If I read that right it said that carbon was removed from the aquarium but new fish added after that still developed HLLE AND that necropsy did not show any carbon fines? That doesn't sound like "proof" yet. Still lots of supposition there seems like to me.

Chris Aldrich · Jan 20, 2015

Thanks for sharing the post/excerpt, Austin. It's always interesting to open the discussion and see what folks have to say. At this point, we only have the two formal studies (one of which is Jay's) to go by. Everything else is purely anecdotal, and there is no shortage of this evidence on both sides of the debate.

When Jay conducted his study, I visited the Zoo and he walked me through the tanks, specimens, etc. For me, based on what I've seen from the two studies, there is some relationship between the use of activated carbon and HLLE. What the connection actually is remains to be seen, but it appears to be there based on the current research.

I think you're spot on when you say that it shouldn't stop folks who keep tangs, or other susceptible fish, from running carbon. Especially when you can utilize high-quality carbon, thorough rinsing, and skimming to mitigate the risk. But it's certainly something for folks who house said species to be aware of.

I'd love to see more formal work done on this topic, though I'm unaware of it being on anyone's radar at the moment.

EZMAC114 · Jan 20, 2015

My Desjardini Sailfin tang started showing signs of HLLE when I used Chemi-pure because it was so fine and even after rinsing it still leaked out of the bag. I had to get all of carbon that was in my sump out and switch to a bigger size grain...after I switch the HLLE stopped. I was very happy that I found the solution because that was the first thing I tried.

Shep · Jan 20, 2015

Does anyone have a link to the published study that the book is citing?

82engineer · Jan 20, 2015

Has anybody looked at the possibility that it may be that the carbon removes something that would normally keep HLLE at bay. This also may bevthe cause of it in nature. The lack of something rather than the addition of. Just an idea.

EZMAC114 · Jan 20, 2015

82engineer said:
Has anybody looked at the possibility that it may be that the carbon removes something that would normally keep HLLE at bay. This also may bevthe cause of it in nature. The lack of something rather than the addition of. Just an idea.

I'm no scientist but I wouldn't think that's the case because I still run carbon, I just switched to a bigger grain size.

Shep · Jan 20, 2015

82engineer said:
Has anybody looked at the possibility that it may be that the carbon removes something that would normally keep HLLE at bay. This also may bevthe cause of it in nature. The lack of something rather than the addition of. Just an idea.

That's why I want to read the study, the excerpt is pretty lacking in detail. With no carbon found during the necropsy, you could be right but until they show the entire pathology of HLLE we won't be 100% sure.

Palting · Jan 20, 2015

Interesting. I ran carbon continuously in my mixed reef with 4 tangs, replaced it every month. Did have a large skimmer. No HLE.

Currently have 2 tangs, an Achilles and a Purple, in QT with a HOB filter. The HOB has carbon, the QT has no skimmer obviously. I plan on a 4-6 week QT period. Now I worry. I think I will take the carbon out of the HOB.

Chris Aldrich · Jan 20, 2015

Shep said:
That's why I want to read the study

Here you go, Shep: The Role of Activated Lignite Carbon in the Development of Head and Lateral Line Erosion in the Ocean Surgeon

(Edit: It will open as a PDF in your browser. It was originally published in the North America Journal of Aquaculture.)

stunreefer · Jan 21, 2015

Thanks Saltwater Smarts

Aquaph8 said:
it's always great to hear your thoughts and chat fish

I agree, Brett! Although not sure about the my thoughts part :thumb:

Chris Aldrich · Jan 22, 2015

No problem.

scardall · Jan 22, 2015

easy to deal with

Lateral line disease is cauesed by the lack of sufficient trace elements, vitamens and amino acids etc. Generaly a diet and water condition issue. I have delt with this many times. Add sufficient trace elements, vitamens and amino acids plus some nice algae to their diet. In general Easy Peezy.

PS: Carbon might be pulling some of what a tang needs for good health

Streetcred · Jan 22, 2015

I use carbon sparingly, always washed out the dust, and slow water movement through the reactor ... only my purple tang developed HHLE, the others are all 100%. Go figure.

ca1ore · Jan 23, 2015

Curious! I have been running carbon of all types for decades, and have had very few cases of HLLE. Yet, the noted study is quite compelling (not sure how statistically significant the findings are based on sample size, but still). I think there I a lot to be said for making sure any fins that escape are quickly removed.