Cardinal with frayed fin and white spots

ariellemermaid · Nov 27, 2020

I got this guy from an online fish store a few days ago (currently in QT). At first I noticed the frayed fin and started to treat with neoplex and metroplex (what I have on hand) for bacterial infections. However today I can definitely make out discrete white spots. QT housed 3 cardinal fish and 1 royal gramma. Overnight one cardinal just suddenly dropped dead. He did have an area of white in the same place as this fish but it wasn't the discrete white spots like this and his fin wasn't frayed. The only fish not interested in food on day 2 was the one that died. No ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, 35ppt. All cardinals are swimming normally (the gramma has been hiding though), no gasping or concerning behavior. 20g QT has an oversized HOB filter on max, powerhead, and currently a large airstone.

So, what do you guys think? Bacterial plaques or ich? I was going to treat with antibiotics then do copper but now I'm thinking about doing both together, is that dangerous? If it is ich, is it ok to wait a week before starting to dose copper? What should I make of a cardinal fish that looks good for 2 days then drops dead? Could the antibiotics have killed it? Metroplex is dosed every 2 days so it's time for another dose. As an aside, I have a yellow tang arriving in a few days; is it safe to add, or should I let it chill in my invert QT until this passes (and reset the clock on my corals

)?

Thanks!

ariellemermaid · Nov 27, 2020

I took this picture when he first arrived. No white spots.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 27, 2020

Did it arrive with that fin damage? If not, something in your tank is tagging it. It may have ich, hard to see, but not severe enough to have killed the other one...fish can survive up to hundreds of spots.
What was the salinity of the shipping water?
Jay

ariellemermaid · Nov 27, 2020

No the picture in the second post is just a few hours after adding to the tank (didn’t want to turn the lights on sooner). So whatever he’s got going on came from the fish store, and to be fair, perhaps he just got picked on. The white spots have disappeared between this morning and this afternoon. He’s back to looking like he did when he arrived and is eating. Just started with some long white stringy poops today though.

Didn't test the shipping water but acclimated appropriately. Still shocked one died suddenly after two days; if it had been him I could understand. The bio filter could have taken a hit with the double antibiotics but tests are good and I’m dosing prime Q2 days just to be safe.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 27, 2020

Sound good. Just be aware that in its early stages, the ich parasites are all in sync, and they can drop off to reproduce at the same time, and then their offspring return in greater numbers, so remain vigilant! That said, not all white spots are ich, so the diagnosis here may not be ich at all....
Jay

ariellemermaid · Dec 3, 2020

So yesterday completed 7 days for the neomycin and 7 days for the metronidazole. Over the past few days he’s been looking a little bit better, swimming ok, eating a bit (all the cardinals are not enthusiastic eaters), and fin loss not significantly worsening.

Then all of a sudden last night he started swimming really poorly like he didn’t have control. Up and down in the water flow, moving side to side with the flow. And new gasping/fast breathing. Generally able to stay upright. Eventually he got stuck to the filter intake until I released him. This morning he’s pinned himself sideways under a rock with gasping breathing, waiting to die. When I saw him last night I couldn’t see anything unusual. Tail fin looked about the same as the picture above, nothing unusual about the rest of his body.

Tank: 4 cardinals all doing well except one, one other is a bit of a bully and pushes the other fish to the opposite side of the tank but then leaves them alone. Also quarantining a small royal gramma and yellow tang both doing great. The tang addition dramatically reduced the bullying and he’s completely passive. 35ppt, ammonia is present but <0.25 and I’m dosing Prime q2 days. No nitrite and no nitrate. Neomycin dosed a week ago, metroplex several days now.

So, how should I be thinking about all of this? He had fin damage when he arrived but was swimming fine and eating. I feel with the right combo of meds we should have been able to save him. The only thing we didn’t add from the fish med threads is furan 2. Somehow I doubt that would have made the difference (I have read fin rot plus white spots can be a superimposed fungal infection though). I don’t think this was ich; no fish have any white spots. The white spots on the tail initially came and went then never came back. Doesn’t ich prefer the body anyway?

Any euthanasia tips? All the threads and articles I’ve read seem to involve hard to find chemicals or clove oil plus CO2 or decapitation. That all seems a bit...involved.

Jay Hemdal · Dec 3, 2020

Sorry to hear. I don’t have any other suggestions, just watch for rapid breathing in the other fish over the next few days. The only vet accepted euthanasia chemical for fish is MS-222, although some use Eugenol. You can use 80 ml of vodka n 1/2 gallon of tank water, and then freeze the fish after it stops/slows breathing. Not AVMA accepted, but better than nothing.
Jay

ariellemermaid · Dec 3, 2020

He died today. Does it help that he died as above? External gill structures expanded and detached from the actual gills?

Jay Hemdal · Dec 4, 2020

That is actually an important symptom. You see this in marine fish that have died from lack of oxygen. I can see the gills themselves are still fairly pink, so that rules out anemia. Since the other fish are not affected, I think you can rule out velvet (but keep an eye on them!). That leaves some sort of gill damage. Despite the antibiotics you used, it may have been bacterial. A slight possibility is that it was viral, but again, other fish should be affected.
Sorry....

Jay

ariellemermaid · Dec 5, 2020

The cardinal deaths continue. To recap: all cardinals from the same online store, a total of 5 now. Of the first 3 one arrived with a frayed tail fin. One of the other two dropped dead suddenly without warning at 48 hours. The one with the frayed fin lasted 8 days. In between, 2 replacement cardinals shipped. Now, 4 days after adding those cardinals another cardinal has died (pictures above) so I'm down to 2.

This guy was looking ok, perhaps slight fin damage to one of his ventral fins. He may have swayed a little with the flow last night. Today he was swimming in his usual spot until we turned off the pumps to feed (<10 minutes). Then, he was lying on the bottom gasping. He perked up a bit when we turned the filter/powerhead/large air stone back on, but soon after was back on the bottom gasping until he died a few hours later. He didn't have the flared out gills look of the other, and gills look good/pink.

The tang, royal gramma, and other 2 cardinals are looking good (but then again so did these fish until they up and died). So now I'm trying another course of neoplex/metroplex and this time Furan 2 as well. Not all of the fish were in there for the first course. We did get an ammonia spike yesterday morning <=0.5 (in the presence of Prime) that didn't seem to bother the fish; after 50% water change it's undetectable again. We've been checking every day and dosing Prime every other day.

So we're at a bit of a loss to explain the deaths. They all came from the same place and only the cardinals are affected, so perhaps they were infected with something before arrival? Perhaps something in my QT is infecting them. Or maybe they're just stressed to death? The 2 replacement cardinals were looking very bad in their bags- one was upside down so I added prime to the acclimation water and they perked up and have done well since (until at least 1 dying days later that is). One of the living cardinals is a bit of a bully at times. So maybe they're just super fragile and it's all too much? Still, this is supposed to be a beginner fish.