My male definitely has eggs in his mouth and at most for only a day or so. I really want to try and breed them. Will a decent size breeder net and some brine shrimp for my big tank do the trick? Or will have to purchase a 5-10 gallon separate tank, heater, light, etc...
Cardinalfish breeding
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Peace River
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The eggs are mouth incubated for about 3 weeks. I strongly recommend the fry be moved to their own tank as soon as they are released from his mouth. If he eats them the first time then no worries, but if he continues to eat the spawns then consider stripping the fry a day or two before he would release them. Some people start the larval feeding plan with rotifers and some have been able to go right to baby brine shrimp (BBS). I also like the @Reef Nutrition fry foods (including their rotifer system). This information is a mix of my experience and guidance from "The Complete Illustrated Breeder's Guide to Marine Aquarium Fishes: Mating, Spawning, & Rearing Methods" (Wittenrich, 2007). Good luck!
Thanks for the info! So I’m still trying to read about it before I go through with it. What exactly is the use of a breeders net if the fry need to be moved to a separate tank entirely? Again, not that worried about it, but obviously more expensive to buy a whole new set just for a few fish that may or may not make it anyways haha
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A 10g tank is $10 if you pick one up at a $1/gallon sale from some local aquarium retailers (slightly more if they are at full price) or a friend or family member may have one that they aren't using. You will need a sponge filter with an air pump (you may already have one or both of these). A bare-bottom tank is preferable so you don't need any substrate and you likely don't need a canopy or even any lighting. I personally add some plastic plants for cover and I paint the outside bottom of the tank with Krylon to limit the reflection. The setup for the rotifers and/or BBS to raise your own food, as well as any other fry food you order, will be more expensive then all of the other hardware needed. Additionally, if you are successful and end up with 10-30 more fish then you will at some point need to figure out what to do with them (and the next batch, and the next batch,...). You will need to decide whether or not it is worth the cost and bother for you, but I can point you toward how to have the best chance to be successful. Best of luck with whatever you decide!
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I haven't used Algae Barn's nano brine. My experience is that they are a good company and their customer service should be able to let you know how many orders and at what intervals you would need. On Algae Barn website, they describe the product as hatching in transit and they should be able to keep alive and at an appropriate size for at least a few days in a proper container. Normally the cardinal fish fry are ready for weaning feed at 24-26 days so you will likely need a few shipments at $15+shipping each so that doesn't seem like the most economical solution. Additionally, after the first week IME it is preferable to enrich the BBS because there is not much nutrition in the BBS by themselves so that is another consideration. A preferable option may be the San Francisco Bay Brand Brine Shrimp Hatchery Kit that includes the base and three sample packets (about $18 from online resellers). You will need to provide an empty two liter bottle, non-iodized salt, an air pump and hosing, a simple light, and (possibly) additional BBS eggs (2 oz. is about $7).
Instigate
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It's very cheap and easy to hatch them yourself and you want to have a steady supply so you never run out so I highly recommend you start a BBS culture. And I would also recommend starting it 3-5 days before you think he's going to release(or more, I never stop, it's just a part of my tank chores now).
(My live food setup, the 10 gallon was holding tank for blackworms for my CBB)
You can always feed the BBS to the tank before the fry is released, your fish and coral will love it. It's also important to note that BBS alone is not the best source of nutrition, copepod nappuli are probably the best but you can also enrich the BBS with Selcon to increase the HUFA's in them which will in turn decrease sudden fright syndrome occurrences and should dramatically decrease or prevent mortality from those instances: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hXE2jk60_3MFUBvYZnlG3CGrRREIhy7B/view?usp=sharing
I've been breeding Banggai Cardinals for a couple years now, IME the male will hold the eggs anywhere from 23-30 days. My breeding pair are just in my reef tank so it can be tricky to retrieve the fry before they get eaten by the other fish or sucked down the overflow. So my strategy is when the male is close to releasing I put in a bunch of fake sea urchins I made and remove mechanical filtration as well as making sure all pumps have foam guards to prevent fry from getting sucked into pumps, you'll know he's close because you will see the little baby fish trying to push their way out of the male's mouth in the few days before he lets them go. The fry will tend to go to the sea urchins and especially the ones in lower flow areas. So it makes it so the other fish have a much harder time getting to them and groups them together for you to easily collect them. On several occasions I've turned the flow off and been able to just slowly lift the sea urchin up and the fry will travel up with the urchin, then I just put a net under and lift them out. Easy.
(Fry peaking out from my male's mouth)
(Fake sea urchins made of epoxy and zip tie clippings)
Then I check just after lights out, middle of the night if I'm up, and first thing in the morning every day until they are released. Also, it's common for them to release over the course of a couple or a few days so don't assume he's empty until you see him eat again. As he releases them I snatch them up with a small net trying to damage a few corals as possible, some damage is inevitable in my tank it seems. And I put them into either a breeder net or a Tupperware with slits cut into it, just enough to provide some flow but not large enough for them to escape. I keep them in there for the first couple weeks or so before transferring to a 10 or 20 gallon of their own. Right now I've been growing them out in my little frag tank. Eventually they will mature to a point where they will start to pair up and try to defend a territory so they will need to be separated but I'm usually able to get them eating frozen foods and get them sold off before that happens. Here is a link to a good paper on breeding these fish if you're interested in reading more: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j2GkAVjV690otY8dKC28GefArIxpWMT6/view?usp=sharing
(Latest batch in a Tupperware that is also home to the baby fungia corals my fungia skeleton is giving off. It's cool seeing the corals and fry all eating up the BBS when I add them plus my pistol shrimp is a thief so they're safe up there)
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Lots of great info! Thanks a bunch! So I guess again my question is, is there anything wrong with the process all being in a breeder net from start to finish as far as when the fry are first relief? Only reason I ask is because I honestly don’t really have room for another tank even if it is only 10 gallons. Not to mention wife will probably kill me lol!! So is a breeder net enough to raise them until they are big enough to just be released in my main tank?
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Anything is possible because fish want to live, however IMO you will notably reduce their chance of survivability by attempting to grow them out in a breeder box. Your approach does not align with my experience or any of the literature that I have read on breeding cardinalfish...on the other hand, fish don't read so you can try it and see what happens.
I was searching my notes and came across the Manual of Breeding Bangaii Cardinalfish Pterapogon kauderni, in Hawai‘i. Although this doesn't directly answer your question, I thought you might find it interesting. Good luck!
Instigate
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A breeder net will not be enough room for them I think. If you're going to raise them you should make some room for a 10 or 20 gallon IMO. I have raised a small fry(7) in a 5 gallon and that went fine. Another option would be to get the largest Tupperware you can find and put some holes in it and use that instead of the breeder net. I use an extra cleaning magnet to secure them. I found Tupperware containers to be much, much easier to clean and it's nice to be able to see through the container however if it's in there long enough it will start to grow coraline like you see on mine. What size tank do you have? I don't think it's a good idea to be releasing them back into the tank unless it's a really big tank and even then IDK because I have not tried it or know how many fish you already have. They are aggressive toward conspecifics once mature. As they mature they will pair up and the pairs will claim territory and try to drive away the others. If the tank isn't large enough to accommodate several separate territories you might have some problems. I have heard of someone releasing a fry and a bunch of longspine sea urchins(one of their favorite hosts) into a 120 gallon and he claims they matured and paired up etc and did fine but I have no idea how long the tank was up.
This behavior is specific to Banggai Cardinalfish BTW. I don't think you mentioned if you have PJs or Banggais or what.
I’m gonna be brave, I think I’m gonna see if I can get them into a breeder net for a few weeks and then move them to my sump. I have nothing down there but a few very small hermit crabs/snails so I’m hoping that won’t be a problem. In the time you have breezed them, have you always moved the male into the net before he spits them out or let him do it in the main tank first and then catch them? If I missed that part I’m sorry.
Instigate
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I've never been able to catch the male while he has the fry, too much coral and rock for him to hide in and a bottle trap doesn't work on a fish that's not eating. I've always just put in the fake sea urchins and collected the fry after being released by the male. What size tank and sump do you have? That sounds do-able. What size is the chamber you would be putting them in? I would recommend using needlepoint material to prevent them from going into the next chamber and I would also use foam on any pumps just in case. Also, if you're going to use a breeder net, do not trust the suction cups. They may work for a while but eventually they will fail and the fry will get eaten. I always used a spare cleaner magnet to help secure it just in case.
kjmsmith
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I shared my experience breeding these here hxxp://thefragtank.ca/community/threads/breeding-banggai-cardinals.19706/ (not sure if live links are allowed) - good luck! Not sure if it was mentioned but the easiest way to catch the male is to wait until lights are out and the room is dark for 30 mins or so and then turn your tank lights on and the male will probably be out in the open and will be temporarily blinded - no need to rush you will be able to scoop him up easily and move him to a breeding/nursery tank to release the fry.
Instigate
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Sounds good to me!
But I would really reconsider releasing them back into the tank, with the existing Banggai pair plus a pair of clowns, I just don't see enough territory. The existing pair will likely try to drive out the others and they have nowhere else to go. And remember you're likely to get 10-20 or more fish and they will form pairs and try to claim their own territory. But it's not like I've tried it. Maybe @eatbreakfast will give you better advice on that.
https://www.amazon.com/Bulk-Buy-Pla...point+plastic&qid=1559180265&s=gateway&sr=8-5
This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I think it's used for making needlepoint. I'm not sure if this is the same size grid as I got. I walked into a Michaels and got a few sheets of the smallest size grid they had. The stuff is very handy, I've used it for a few different fish tank related DIY projects.
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