Caught Acro eating with polyps

[Hermie]

I just caught my yellow tips tort eating either fish waste or coral waste from another coral. I NEVER thought acro polyps could CONSUME food but yeah they can apparently. I thought they were like montipora where the polyps just host dinos for photosynthesis.


sorry for quality my camera battery was dead had to use ipad

 

[landlubber]

my impression was always that polyps are basically by design just fingers for snagging food in the water column and a mouth to drag it into.

 

[Hermie]

my impression was always that polyps are basically by design just fingers for snagging food in the water column and a mouth to drag it into.

same but dolphins have finger bones, so to speak, know what I mean?

 

[landlubber]

same but dolphins have finger bones, so to speak, know what I mean?

they might but being they aren't using them to capture and direct those food items to their mouth. i guess i don't see the correlation.
watch a scoly feed on mysis and my point will be clear. they're opportunistic and very obviously inspired by food.

 

[Hermie]

they might but being they aren't using them to capture and direct those food items to their mouth. i guess i don't see the correlation.
watch a scoly feed on mysis and my point will be clear. they're opportunistic and very obviously inspired by food.

acropora polyps may be specialized dinoflagellate obligates whereby they get all their nutritional requirements met through photosynthetic means. The polyp is simply the coral unit, but it can house a concentrated population of dinoflagellates.

 

[BranchingHammer]

I don’t know if this happens to anyone else or just me but... when an asterina starfish is dislodged from the glass and lands on my austera? and some other acros, the polyps grab onto the starfish and prevent it from moving. Eventually the starfish dies from starvation/stinging, and it’s body creates detritus and a dead spot on the coral (Only on the low flow spot on my austera). If I catch it soon enough, no damage occurs, but otherwise a hole is burned in the coral flesh. Just putting that out there because it seems like the polyps on my austera are underestimating the size of their prey, but they clearly want to eat it!

 

[lemonade]

I captured this photo a while back of one of my acros capturing and attempting to eat a small piece of mysis. It did not end up consuming this, but if it got something out of it? I do not know.

 

[jda]

Yes, they can catch food. There is no evidence that what they catch in our tanks does any good or even that the value is worth the energy exerted. There is plenty of evidence that the corals do not need to catch anything in the polyps to thrive. There is actual little evidence that they get much value from this in the ocean either, but species matters where acropora seem to do it less than other types of SPS. Even some acropora like the smooth skinned ones have way less polyps than some hairy ones. ...lots of variables here.

What appears to happen a lot is assimilating bacteria through the slime coat, and other single cell and microscopic stuff. This does appear to happen in captivity and the coral gets to keep nearly all of the energy from the bacteria. Not having SO much flow that the coral creates a forcefield seems to help - good flow, but not stupid flow. Also, this is a math game where small corals have small surface area and lose out on the numbers whereas colonies can capture more. Again, this is not necessary and the light to the zoox creating sugars is enough for the coral, but it appears to happen.

 

[Hermie]

Yes, they can catch food. There is no evidence that what they catch in our tanks does any good or even that the value is worth the energy exerted. There is plenty of evidence that the corals do not need to catch anything in the polyps to thrive. There is actual little evidence that they get much value from this in the ocean either, but species matters where acropora seem to do it less than other types of SPS. Even some acropora like the smooth skinned ones have way less polyps than some hairy ones. ...lots of variables here.

What appears to happen a lot is assimilating bacteria through the slime coat, and other single cell and microscopic stuff. This does appear to happen in captivity and the coral gets to keep nearly all of the energy from the bacteria. Not having SO much flow that the coral creates a forcefield seems to help - good flow, but not stupid flow. Also, this is a math game where small corals have small surface area and lose out on the numbers whereas colonies can capture more. Again, this is not necessary and the light to the zoox creating sugars is enough for the coral, but it appears to happen.

So perhaps the coral was tasting the bacterial flavors in nearby corals' diets and maybe incorporating some of those bacteria

 

[C. Eymann]

Yes, they can catch food. There is no evidence that what they catch in our tanks does any good or even that the value is worth the energy exerted. There is plenty of evidence that the corals do not need to catch anything in the polyps to thrive. There is actual little evidence that they get much value from this in the ocean either, but species matters where acropora seem to do it less than other types of SPS. Even some acropora like the smooth skinned ones have way less polyps than some hairy ones. ...lots of variables here.

There is no evidence? and little evidence that what they catch out of the ocean has value? Sources?

compare RAW NSW results with filtered CTL, that right there proves your statement there wrong

Do I need to post links again to the peer reviewed research that shows pretty much all of the information you spout "matter of factly" on the subject is incorrect?

Influence of different feeding regimes on the survival, growth, and biochemical composition of Acropora coral recruits

Heterotrophic feeding in newly-settled coral planulae can potentially improve survivorship and accelerate early development in some species; however, an optimal diet to facilitate this does not currently exist. This study evaluated the efficacy of three heterotrophic feeding regimes (enriched...

journals.plos.org

Control (Green) is micron filtered seawater
RAW is unfiltered NSW
ATF is a formulated coral diet developed by AIMS
ROT is rotifers

Funny that Australian Institution of Marine Sciences would develop a coral food suspension for their captive systems if it had little to no benefit?

Some more "evidence"

Coral suspension feeding on fine particulate matter

High concentrations of fine suspended particulate matter (SPM) on nearshore coral reefs are generally assumed to be a stress factor for corals. Howeve…

www.sciencedirect.com

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Effect of natural zooplankton feeding on the tissue and skeletal growth of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata - Coral Reefs

Laboratory experiments were designed to estimate the ingestion rates of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata under varying prey concentrations and feeding regimes and to assess the effect of feeding on the tissue and skeletal growth. Six sets of corals were incubated under two light (80...

link.springer.com

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Vincent Chalias has given talks on why feeding acropora can be important for certain species that occur in more turbid waters, esp new mariculture milliepora and tenuis especially.

Im not Vincent Chalias, but I do get paid to grow acropora 40hrs a week.

I feed these systems suspened coral foods 3x a week, seem to be having pretty good results so far.....

 

[jda]

I have talked to Vincent about this at a MACNA back when we had them. You have anything in your own tanks over a few year period that show that feeding grows corals any better than the many of us who do not? I am still waiting for one of these tanks. I do not know a single person with a top-tier acropora tank who will say that feeding their corals was necessary or even a pillar of their success.

Lots of people think that their food makes a difference, then they stop and see no change. Been like this in cycles for the 30 years that I have been reefing and have still not seen any evidence that a hobbyist needs to feed anything. Can you grow acropora faster than I can and have in-tank experiences to add? If you do, then I would like to hear about this since this can matter more than the other things posted.

Also, what did I type that was wrong in any of those studies? None of them need it - check. Some species seem to do it more than others - check. Some species get more out of it than others - check. No evidence that it really matters in captive tanks - check. I am not willing to reef on papers, studies and what some vendors do - it has served me well for many years to focus on what the best of the best actual reefers do. This can upset some people, but I have been keeping successful reefs as generations of the disgruntled have come and gone and the ones that I still interact with that appreciate how to make stuff work in a tank is worth the garbage from the others. I should just disappear into the abyss like the other master hobbyists have, but I still get happy when I meet a new one every once in a while.

 

[happyhourhero]

I have talked to Vincent about this at a MACNA back when we had them. You have anything in your own tanks over a few year period that show that feeding grows corals any better than the many of us who do not? I am still waiting for one of these tanks. I do not know a single person with a top-tier acropora tank who will say that feeding their corals was necessary or even a pillar of their success.

Lots of people think that their food makes a difference, then they stop and see no change. Been like this in cycles for the 30 years that I have been reefing and have still not seen any evidence that a hobbyist needs to feed anything. Can you grow acropora faster than I can and have in-tank experiences to add? If you do, then I would like to hear about this since this can matter more than the other things posted.

Also, what did I type that was wrong in any of those studies? None of them need it - check. Some species seem to do it more than others - check. Some species get more out of it than others - check. No evidence that it really matters in captive tanks - check. I am not willing to reef on papers, studies and what some vendors do - it has served me well for many years to focus on what the best of the best actual reefers do. This can upset some people, but I have been keeping successful reefs as generations of the disgruntled have come and gone and the ones that I still interact with that appreciate how to make stuff work in a tank is worth the garbage from the others. I should just disappear into the abyss like the other master hobbyists have, but I still get happy when I meet a new one every once in a while.

Don’t fade into the abyss. There are folks lurking around that have appreciated your input on the forums for years.

 

[C. Eymann]

I have talked to Vincent about this at a MACNA back when we had them.

and?

Also, what did I type that was wrong in any of those studies?

Yes, they can catch food. There is no evidence that what they catch in our tanks does any good or even that the value is worth the energy exerted. There is plenty of evidence that the corals do not need to catch anything in the polyps to thrive. There is actual little evidence that they get much value from this in the ocean either.

Pretty much all of this ^^^^^

None of them need it - check. Some species seem to do it more than others - check. Some species get more out of it than others - check. No evidence that it really matters in captive tanks - check.

Technically you contradicted yourself here, because according to your original statement- they dont/ if hardly benefit at all from suspended food capture, but now you are saying some species benefit more than others?

I should just disappear into the abyss like the other master hobbyists have, but I still get happy when I meet a new one every once in a while.

Did you just refer to yourself as a "Master Hobbyist "?


When we get into this debate, you seem to think that I am trying to say that feeding coral foods is absolutely necessary, its not and I fully admit that, but despite many peer reviewed studies done showing that providing suspended coral foods can enhance vitality and growth, you say its hogwash!
Okay, provide your sources ?


Because basically you are saying at this point you- as a "master hobbyist" on a forum know more about coral nutrition than those with PhD.s in coral biology

Yes, they can catch food. There is no evidence that what they catch in our tanks does any good or even that the value is worth the energy exerted. There is plenty of evidence that the corals do not need to catch anything in the polyps to thrive. There is actual little evidence that they get much value from this in the ocean either,

Again, studies have shown the statements you have made to be false.

Post sources proving otherwise.


Bottom line, if you have an opinion on something and want share it. thats cool

But posting statements in a "matter of fact" type of way like you have , with little to no credible sources to back it up, is....... well to be discouraged in this hobby.

 

[jda]

This is going to be hard for you to accept, but what people accomplish in their homes sustainably practicing what they preach is both a credible source and also more important than any study or academic enterprise for people also reefing in their homes. My opinions are for anybody to take or leave at their will, but you can bet that they are based on actual experience of having a thriving reef tank for almost 30 years. I will sometimes post about things that I have read or heard, but I try and mention that in the post. These opinions from me, and the many others who offer the same, are worth more than links from people who have not achieved the same level of success in their own piece of the hobby.

Feed your corals. Get an awesome tank. Sustain it for a decade, or so. Then, I want to know about since there is surely something that I can learn. If you do, then you will be the first. Until then, reefing with links and studies is akin to childless teachers who think that they know all that there is to know about being a parent because they work at a school and have "hundreds of children". It is incredible to me the few people who don't have the same level of success as most of the posters that constantly want to post links and act like the successful ones are idiots. The successful reefers are surely idiots, just not usually about their tanks.

You can laugh at my posts if you want, but you have never offered enough of your own experience to laugh at anybody. Everybody who has done nothing can climb on the backs of others and post links, so if you have something better, I still want to hear about YOUR ACTUAL IN HOME REEF EXPERIENCE.

 

[C. Eymann]

This is going to be hard for you to accept, but what people accomplish in their homes sustainably practicing what they preach is both a credible source and also more important than any study or academic enterprise for people also reefing in their homes. My opinions are for anybody to take or leave at their will, but you can bet that they are based on actual experience of having a thriving reef tank for almost 30 years. I will sometimes post about things that I have read or heard, but I try and mention that in the post. These opinions from me, and the many others who offer the same, are worth more than links from people who have not achieved the same level of success in their own piece of the hobby.

Feed your corals. Get an awesome tank. Sustain it for a decade, or so. Then, I want to know about since there is surely something that I can learn. If you do, then you will be the first. Until then, reefing with links and studies is akin to those childless teachers who think that they know all that there is to know about being a parent because they work at a school and have "hundreds of children". It is incredible to me the few people who don't have the same level of success as most of the posters that constantly want to post links and act like the successful ones are idiots. The successful reefers are surely idiots, just not usually about their tanks.

You can laugh at my posts if you want, but you have never offered enough of your own experience to laugh at anybody. Everybody who has done nothing can climb on the backs of others and post links, so if you have something better, I still want to hear about YOUR ACTUAL IN HOME REEF EXPERIENCE.

I am the manager of one of the largest coral aquaculture facilities in the US.

What is it that you do again?


I have been in the hobby 24 years, half of which has been working professionally in the industry and currently oversee water chemistry/ parameters and QT protocols on 22 different sps culture systems totaling over 20,000 gallons on a daily basis.

None of that really matters though, because I have provided numerous pieces of information, studies and credible sources to back up my claims in this debate! you haven't provided any credible sources or evidence to back up yours?

What does that say ?


Im not trying to be combative with you but it gets tiresome when someone just keeps blabbering off "because I said so" statements without any evidence to back up their claims.

 

[C. Eymann]

Still waiting for replys on points I brought up in post #13


Also did you read through the research studies I posted?


Probably not right?, you being a master hobbyist and all...

 

[jda]

Read most of them when they came out. Learned some things. Had some time wasted. Still have my opinions on how to run a tank backed up by results - waste of time to feed acropora in captivity and mostly a waste of time for all SPS. In fact, happy to help you with your tank if you want good results and not just base things in academia. You won't want my help, but you should probably take it based on what I have seen.

Again, only the inexperienced look to academia over results. I imagine that most of those authors would agree if you ever got out to talk to them. I am not saying that academia is worthless, but just pointing to it with no experience is.

I went to a good university... not the best but far from the worst and one of our best professors who was well respected and had probably two dozen honorary doctorates from high institutions told us on the first day that he could commission a study to prove that your mom was your dad and that your dad was your mom and have it pass peer review. The next level thinkers can figure out what to take from it, but the elite thinkers will figure out that not everybody can see past the face value. I have posted this here before many times, so my apologies to those who have read it before. Perhaps we should just end this agreeing that we are on different levels where I deal in the real world and you want to live in papers and academia? ...neither better than the other, just different.

 

[landlubber]

well this thread is pretty much destroyed. thanks fellas

 

[C. Eymann]

Read most of them when they came out. Learned some things. Had some time wasted. Still have my opinions on how to run a tank backed up by results - waste of time to feed acropora in captivity and mostly a waste of time for all SPS. In fact, happy to help you with your tank if you want good results and not just base things in academia. You won't want my help, but you should probably take it based on what I have seen.

Again, only the inexperienced look to academia over results. I imagine that most of those authors would agree if you ever got out to talk to them. I am not saying that academia is worthless, but just pointing to it with no experience is.

I went to a good university... not the best but far from the worst and one of our best professors who was well respected and had probably two dozen honorary doctorates from high institutions told us on the first day that he could commission a study to prove that your mom was your dad and that your dad was your mom and have it pass peer review. The next level thinkers can figure out what to take from it, but the elite thinkers will figure out that not everybody can see past the face value. I have posted this here before many times, so my apologies to those who have read it before. Perhaps we should just end this agreeing that we are on different levels where I deal in the real world and you want to live in papers and academia? ...neither better than the other, just different.

You are completely right, I only live in papers and academia, I have no real world experience with acropora and totally don't know what I am doing.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

You are completely right, I only live in papers and academia, I have no real world experience with acropora and totally don't know what I am doing.

The only peer reviewed studies that matter are anything from Randy Holmes Farley or are from before 1980