Chaeto die off

[USMA36]

I have been running Core7 for other methods since September. All has been well for the most part with the exception of bottle 1 overdosing mag for awhile which killed off some snails. My chaeto was growing like crazy in my trigger sump. I went with other methods because my fuge area wasn’t quite big enough for the regular Core7. Suddenly my chaeto is dying off. Part of it is mushy and just disintergrating. My nutrients did bottom out at 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates for a short while but now since the chaeto is dying off my nitrates have spiked to 25. All other parameters are within normal limits. Any ideas? The disintegrating chaeto is playing havoc on my skimmer pump and making a mess. I’d really like to get my nitrates back down too before it kills off my cuc.

 

[Mark Derail]

Same with me. Though I do have some phosphates & nitrates - though very low. My troubles started when I finished the stand, so now the air doesn't circulate as much in the sump. Sump temp is 26.8c and the DT 25.5c. Hot & humid.

I had reduced 24/7 lighting to 12 hours, then I brought it back up to 24/7. No visible change. It used to grow so much I had to dump half of it weekly.

My guess so far that it is too warm being "enclosed" now. Going to try a fan in there next, which will just make evaporation worse.

Also at same time I closed off the sump - I did a Flatwork Exit Salifert - lost quite a few bristleworms.

 

[USMA36]

Mine gets plenty of airflow so I do not think it is that. I only dose 5ml a day to keep my alk steady at 8.0. Not sure if that has anything to do with it.

 

[tastyfish]

Remember the core things that algae needs to grow:

- Nutrients
- Trace Elements
- Light
- Flow

Other methods does not contain the trace elements required to support the algae bed, so it might be reasonable to assume that this is a place to start. What does your last ICP look like?

If you haven't changed anything in the tank then it's highly likely to be down to nutrients and/or trace element levels.

 

[teller]

If your MAG is still high, its a good candidate to interfere with the Chae to.

 

[TechnicalFisher]

I think it's a nutrient issue - I noticed that when my NO3 has gotten low, my Chaeto started to to do the same. I harvested around 1/4 - 1/3 of it and have been dosing additional NO3 and it's been growing back well. Aiming for around 5ppm NO3.

You may also be close enough on sump size that you could/should be using full method. My fuge area is borderline, but I've got a lot of light and the Chaeto grows quickly. I'm using full method and it seems to be working well.

 

[USMA36]

My Nitrates have spiked and are at 25ppm right now. Way too high and I am worried about my snails dying off. I don’t know if the chaeto that is dying off is releasing the nitrates or the smaller mass just isn’t up taking it as efficiently as it used to be. Magnesium is good now. Has been for the past 2 or 3 weeks now. 1400 magnesium calcium 400 alk 7.8-8.0 pH 7.9-8.1

 

[Lasse]

Check your nitrite - there is a possibility that you have got NO2 in the water and it will give a false reading. Dying Chaeto do not release NO3 - they release NH4 when bacteria break them down. If you have a limited nitrification - NO2 will build up and give a false reading of NO3. 25 ppm NO3 or 0.25 - 0.5 NO2 will not kill any snails. and as Tasty Fish and TechnicallFisher states - its something that probably limit Chaeto gowth.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[USMA36]

I will check. Is that a possibility with over 100lbs of live rock and 100 lbs of live sand in a tank running for a year? Wouldn’t nitrites be killing coral and fish?

 

[TechnicalFisher]

For what it's worth, I meant to add that in my experience with Triton (which is limited to just 6 mos), pruning back the Chaeto hasn't been a bad thing. I know that there's some ambiguity in the instructions and they seem to advise against it, but I tend to do best when I'm keeping it from becoming a solid brick. When I start to see the top layer turning white, I'll take a cross-section from top to bottom.

I got started doing this after following a thread from @d2mini where he experienced a significant dieoff and associated problems. If you are seeing it dieoff in any significant amount, you may want to try pruning it back a bit (or seek some additional feedback on doing so).

 

[d2mini]

Yup, trim your green curlies and watch your nutrients.
You can look up my build thread and my posts in the triton sub-forum. Same thing happened to me and I ended up having to restart my tank.
My fuge literally couldn't support any macros for a long time, even after getting nutrients back up, and all those nutrients from the dying chaeto went into the display and wreaked havoc.
Total nightmare.

I truly hope you can recover, OP.

 

[Mark Gray]

For what it's worth, I meant to add that in my experience with Triton (which is limited to just 6 mos), pruning back the Chaeto hasn't been a bad thing. I know that there's some ambiguity in the instructions and they seem to advise against it, but I tend to do best when I'm keeping it from becoming a solid brick. When I start to see the top layer turning white, I'll take a cross-section from top to bottom.

I got started doing this after following a thread from @d2mini where he experienced a significant dieoff and associated problems. If you are seeing it dieoff in any significant amount, you may want to try pruning it back a bit (or seek some additional feedback on doing so).

Following I am not doing triton on this tank but will be on my next build. I have to prune back my cheato it grows out of the water, I trim it back once a week

 

[Zacco]

Your Chaeto may be Iron deficient. Photosynthesis is carried out within cell bodies know as chloroplasts. Iron is utilized in the electron transport chain within the chloroplasts and therefore required by photosynthetic organisms for continued functioning and health. In effect, the availability of iron becomes the limiting factor in the rate of photosynthesis, and hence the rate of nutrient uptake and growth. I dose Ferrion Iron Supplement from Brightwell Aquatics. About 2 ml. per 50 gallons once a week to keep my chaeto in good health. Chaeto will deplete your system of Iron in time.

 

[Lasse]

I will check. Is that a possibility with over 100lbs of live rock and 100 lbs of live sand in a tank running for a year? Wouldn’t nitrites be killing coral and fish?

No - nitrite is not toxic for fish and most inverts in salt water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[USMA36]

Does Core7 include iron?

 

[Zacco]

Does Core7 include iron?

Im not familiar with the core7 line. It may include it in trace amounts, but how much is the question.

 

[USMA36]

I have an ICP test due back in a week, I guess I will see then. I really hope the die off turns around and doesn’t cause more problems.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

Yup, trim your green curlies and watch your nutrients.
You can look up my build thread and my posts in the triton sub-forum. Same thing happened to me and I ended up having to restart my tank.
My fuge literally couldn't support any macros for a long time, even after getting nutrients back up, and all those nutrients from the dying chaeto went into the display and wreaked havoc.
Total nightmare.

I truly hope you can recover, OP.

Dennis had about a 1 month start on me but we went through the exact same experience at the time and there was some good discussion in that thread regarding macro nutrients and iron supplements.

I walked away with two absolutes from the experience: 1) Triton is tricky on a new tank without a real bio-load and 2) I really dislike cheato.

USMA36, do you have any other macros in your refugium?
What is your current stocking level in the display?

M
P.S. Nice build thread by the way. Shows some serious woodworking chops!

 

[Want2BS8ed]

Your Chaeto may be Iron deficient. Photosynthesis is carried out within cell bodies know as chloroplasts. Iron is utilized in the electron transport chain within the chloroplasts and therefore required by photosynthetic organisms for continued functioning and health. In effect, the availability of iron becomes the limiting factor in the rate of photosynthesis, and hence the rate of nutrient uptake and growth. I dose Ferrion Iron Supplement from Brightwell Aquatics. About 2 ml. per 50 gallons once a week to keep my chaeto in good health. Chaeto will deplete your system of Iron in time.

Yep yep! And iron is not something that shows up on an ICP Test generally. I am not familiar with Brightwells product. Does it include manganese as well?

M

 

[tastyfish]

I would be looking at Iron, Iodine & Potassium. IME, this normally accounts for poor health of macro algae, along with lack of flow and an insufficient lighting spectrum.

A mix of macro algae is one of the basics of the Triton method, which helps negate a die off of one particular species and is a philosophy I use in my tank, so as one recedes, another grows to take its place.

If you are using Triton Other methods, then you will likely not be getting the higher levels of trace elements for macro algae growth.

Iron is difficult to spot on the ICP, Triton's set-point is elevated just to give you a reading. When it is present, it gets consumed rapidly, so really it's only a point in time measurement.