Slingshot357
Active Member
I wouldn't lower PO4 to 0.02 for any reason. I would shoot for no less than .05.
I run at 0.15 and everything looks great, but that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
Chaeto not growing
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I wouldn't lower PO4 to 0.02 for any reason. I would shoot for no less than .05.
I run at 0.15 and everything looks great, but that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
Well, there's more than one reason.
First, my experience is that PO4 higher than that level, in association with organic carbon (algae leach that), fuels undesired organisms like cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates. When PO4 raise over that level, doesn't matter what NO3 is, but on every surface a film of brown microalgae grow up quickly.
Second, think about triton system (I'm a user of that). It uses chaeto in a refugium and recommends to keep PO4 at 0,018, using PO4 adsorber media if needed.
Finally, my chaeto used to cover with slime and bubbles and other macros had hard time to live. I use a Kessil h380 over it. Since when I lowered my PO4 and made algae to thumble, they thrive and are well clean and brilliant.
In case You need to lower your PO4, I advice You to use lanthanum chloride, paying attention to not overdose and reduce too much PO4. I recently used ATM's one.
Luca
Slingshot357
Active Member
I'm growing non-photosynthetic Carnation coral and need to dose a lot of Phytoplankton. Very difficult to keep NO3 and PO4 low when dosing that much phyto. Considering the amount I dose 0.15 is actually good.
But either way I wouldn't worry about PO4 being too high unless you actually have an algae problem. Some people run fine with no algae with a PO4 closer to 0.2, it all depends on what affect it has on your tank. I do know that almost everything in your tank needs PO4 and I certainly wouldn't change my PO4 normal levels if everything else is doing fine but I can't grow chaeto. If my NO3 and PO4 numbers were that low I wouldn't even bother to run chaeto.
Sorry, I misunderstood your PO4 level and thought 0,015 instead of 0,15 you wrote.
Anyway, I think in a tank with NPS corals You do not use powerful light. So less risk to grow algae or any unwanted photsynthetic organism, as dino or cyano.
So I would appreciate an interpretation about triton recommendation to keep PO4 0,018ppm (using PO4 adsorber) in a system based on macroalgae.
Please remember they recommend NO3 1,6ppm, and 2/3 of total nitrogen should be nitrate (so not all that low). This should be the perfect recipe for growing corals, together with all other inorganics elements in the right concentration.
Luca
Anyway, I think in a tank with NPS corals You do not use powerful light. So less risk to grow algae or any unwanted photsynthetic organism, as dino or cyano.
So I would appreciate an interpretation about triton recommendation to keep PO4 0,018ppm (using PO4 adsorber) in a system based on macroalgae.
Please remember they recommend NO3 1,6ppm, and 2/3 of total nitrogen should be nitrate (so not all that low). This should be the perfect recipe for growing corals, together with all other inorganics elements in the right concentration.
Luca
Slingshot357
Active Member
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I think they mean after the chaeto is consuming some of the NO3 and PO4 you are left with those numbers, not before you even add chaeto.
The chaeto also serves as mechanical filtration as well.
You would need to question someone more informed about the triton method. I’m not running the triton method so the needs of the triton method might not apply to me. Maybe they are considering the fact that you aren’t running mechanical filtration and all the excess food and waste are getting stuck in the chaeto and giving off the required nutrients to keep the chaeto growin? I really have no idea.
Also, I actually run high par lighting. I also have SPS in the tank with the NPS. It’s not a species specific tank. So far everything is doing great.
I think they mean after the chaeto is consuming some of the NO3 and PO4 you are left with those numbers, not before you even add chaeto.
The chaeto also serves as mechanical filtration as well.
You would need to question someone more informed about the triton method. I’m not running the triton method so the needs of the triton method might not apply to me. Maybe they are considering the fact that you aren’t running mechanical filtration and all the excess food and waste are getting stuck in the chaeto and giving off the required nutrients to keep the chaeto growin? I really have no idea.
Also, I actually run high par lighting. I also have SPS in the tank with the NPS. It’s not a species specific tank. So far everything is doing great.
Not my experiences with my system with chaeto - it is the opposite - if I come down to 0.01- 0.02 I get problems both with Chaeto and coral growth
I´m not sure that Triton recommend PO4 adsorber in the first step if PO4 level rise in the water. As I remember - first action is to rise the fuge illumination to 14 hours.
I´m a TRITON user too but I do not take their set points too serious.
My experiences with my aquarium is the opposite - if I lower below 0.04 ppm - I get problem with red slime on my chaeto
Sincerely Lasse
Slingshot357
Active Member
Agree 100%. I think triton actually wants you to raise your NO3 and PO4 before you start, and remove any mechanical filtration like filter socks.
I try not to stress about NO3 and PO4 unless I have a problem in my tank. I don’t even consider nitrates around 25ppm high. As long as fish and corals look happy and algae is under control then it’s all good.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
i feel like i never have any nitrates and phosphates. im in a brave new world right now. Apex, Dos's, Wavs, Trident, high alk salt. reefsaver rock, regal dc skimmer, crystal reef aquatic triton sump (huge fuge), media reactor, reefbreeders, kessil h380 over fuge.
reefing since 2001. i finally had the financial ability to get all the stuff. shoot i jist switched from halides last year. its a bit overwhelming. and ive never had such a hard time getting a tank off the ground. I never thought id actually be thinkingnof ADDING NO3 & PO4!
reefing since 2001. i finally had the financial ability to get all the stuff. shoot i jist switched from halides last year. its a bit overwhelming. and ive never had such a hard time getting a tank off the ground. I never thought id actually be thinkingnof ADDING NO3 & PO4!
Slingshot357
Active Member
From what I understand about nitrates and phosphate, the results you get from testing is just the excess leftover after consumption. There is nitrate and phosphate in your tank, it’s just all being consumed or skimmed before it has a chance to degrade. So if you reduces your skimming your nitrates and phosphate should slowly rise. If it doesn’t then something is really starving for them. Be it algae or corals, something is consuming more than the fish and feeding are producing.
I would probably try reducing my skimming before dosing nitrate and phosphate and maybe feed a little more. I can’t really talk from experience though. I’ve never had a problem with low numbers. I’ve heard of people putting their skimmers on a timer and having it shut down for a portion of the day to keep their numbers up a little.
ayuh... not a bad idea. So sad just got this fancy skimmer. lol. i was keeping to skimmer running to help stablize pH. offset CO2 but i guess photosynthesis will offset CO2 as well.
i feed the reefer 450 2 cubes mysis and 1-3 good pinches of pellets per day.
alklinity wiuld not have an effect on chaeto would it?
i feed the reefer 450 2 cubes mysis and 1-3 good pinches of pellets per day.
alklinity wiuld not have an effect on chaeto would it?
Slingshot357
Active Member
I’m not sure if alk has any effect but my first impression is no. I think only corals care about alk.
As for PH I usually just try to have a lot of surface agitation. I have my return and one powerhead making a lot of agitation on the surface of the water. I also dose a little kalk at night. It helps keep it steady at around 8.2.
Don’t see any reason you couldn’t add an air stone in a far corner of your sump as well. In my sump I would just put it in where the tank water comes in before the socks, but it should work anywhere except your refugeum or return area. Not sure how much that would help though. Never tried it.
Scrubber_steve
2500 Club Member
Oxygen saturation & super-saturation in aquarium water can only be achieved via photosynthesis (growing algae).
This oxygen is created when the carbon molecule is taken from co2 & assimilated to create matter as a consequence of photosynthesis - Co2 > o2.
If you have high levels of co2 in the ambient air the aquarium water will also have high co2 content. If you use a skimmer without a co2 scrubber, or without a fresh supple of outside air feeding the skimmer, your skimmer will just be adding this high co2 content ambient air directly into the water.
If your skimmer is fed fresh air, & you want to keep it running to help remove co2 from the water, but you don't want it removing organic compounds that breakdown into nitrogen & phosphate compounds, run it with the collection cup removed.
No, the opposite. If there is low co2 content in the water (as a gas or liquid >> carbonic acid) inhibiting photosynthesis algae can convert bicarbonates back into co2. The alk content won't fall though as hydroxides prevent this happening.
yup.. sound science. I guess I am just never getting the photosynth happening at night. As shown by my no cheaeto growth. Dino's have shown me all their love twice though. :-(. which again points me to low nutrients. I am a product of a solid twelve years of what it took to be succesful but the variables have changed. Real Fiji LR is probably the biggest impact on virtually everything from my POV. was always fighting with GHA or Valonia now I have not a stich of it, but biodiveristiy of bacteria and microfauna was present from day one. I was running a huge display fuge before it was even a thing filled with caulerpa.
skimmer currently off.
now with trident I can literally choose my Alk and Ca which I think I am waiting to settle on 8.5 and 420 respectively.
currently running thru my supply of 2 part b-ionic then may move to triton as I have a box of their core 7 in my basement. I have been adding the brightwell Chaetogrow for the last 1.5 weeks.
After reading the tons of reviews on Alk levels and my struggles with my SPS and coral coloring and growth (as well as chaeto) I can now see that my switch to Red Sea Coral pro was the wrong one. This combined with a brand new appropriately sized skimmer. medium sized bioload and lights that are screaming PAR has created a high alklinity and low nutrient situation, Dinoflagellates thrived corals were burning, rtn, not opening, and not coloring up. unfortunately I just purchased a new bucket of coral pro so I am going to burn thru that with small water changes so as to not spike alkalinity. Anyway to come back to topic. I just sent out an ICP test yesterday we will see what it shows for nutrients. I just had a test come back where my Sb (antimony) was EXTRAORDINARILY high (26ppm). I am attributing to a pump used only for water changes that I nick named "shocky" and a broken heater.
my last test:
www.triton-lab.de
skimmer currently off.
now with trident I can literally choose my Alk and Ca which I think I am waiting to settle on 8.5 and 420 respectively.
currently running thru my supply of 2 part b-ionic then may move to triton as I have a box of their core 7 in my basement. I have been adding the brightwell Chaetogrow for the last 1.5 weeks.
After reading the tons of reviews on Alk levels and my struggles with my SPS and coral coloring and growth (as well as chaeto) I can now see that my switch to Red Sea Coral pro was the wrong one. This combined with a brand new appropriately sized skimmer. medium sized bioload and lights that are screaming PAR has created a high alklinity and low nutrient situation, Dinoflagellates thrived corals were burning, rtn, not opening, and not coloring up. unfortunately I just purchased a new bucket of coral pro so I am going to burn thru that with small water changes so as to not spike alkalinity. Anyway to come back to topic. I just sent out an ICP test yesterday we will see what it shows for nutrients. I just had a test come back where my Sb (antimony) was EXTRAORDINARILY high (26ppm). I am attributing to a pump used only for water changes that I nick named "shocky" and a broken heater.
my last test:
Triton Lab Showroom - Explore this water test results and click on the image above.
Someone wants to show you the water test results and shared this link to the evaluation. Click on the image above to explore the water test results.
www.triton-lab.de
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Thespammailaccount
2500 Club Member
I found out that mine grows like a weed under a standard grow bulb the cheap eight buck kind the white light and not the red mine does not tumble I just flip it over once a day when I remember
so one fun thing is that since I turned my skimmer off a couple days ago... there was a brown coating on my sandbed which is now gone... sand looks great now. Also have set the kessil to bloom rather than grow. my h380 is either/ or can dial it somewhere in between. should have the ICP analysis back very soon hoping today.
also trying to stick my alk to 8.5 and Ca to 420 Mg I won't dose until i see it drop below 1280. sound about right?
also trying to stick my alk to 8.5 and Ca to 420 Mg I won't dose until i see it drop below 1280. sound about right?
Slingshot357
Active Member
Sounds good to me. Are these numbers what your tank is usually at?
Brown might be Dino. For some reason I was thinking cyano at first when I posted this. I blame it on not enough sleep last night. But yea. Low nutrients can cause Dinoflagellates.
Stability is more important than exact numbers. I just basically did a few water changes back to back and measured my Alk, Cal, PH etc. I think I ended up with 8.3 Alk, 480 Cal, 8.2 PH. Now I just shoot for those numbers and try to keep it stable, thinking if I ever have a problem and can't figure it out I'll just do a bunch of water changes over a few days and it should be at, or close to, whatever my tank is accustomed to. Should being the emphasized word. Sometimes salt mixes vary a little. This also means if I ever wanted to change the brand of salt I use I either need to find something VERY close or change very slowly over time to give corals enough time to adjust to the new levels.
I never seem to need Mag, Probably because I do weekly (sometimes bi-weekly) water changes.
Is your PH holding with the skimmer off? It should, but was just curious.
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yup had all out wars with dino previously in this build... twice. I didn't have much coral at that time so I just blacked out for like 3 weeks.. easy to do when you have a 5 week old baby. but probably set me back in maturation a few months. I can see nice calcareous algae growth here and there. will post some pics up soon.
I'm old school.. most of the time that is good. but I can see now that the huge water changes I've been doing have been like a tidal wave of alkalinity and keep nutrients low. Especially with Red sea coral pro salt. I will be switching my salt when this bucket is done. something more in line with current tank parameters. Ph seems to have the same ebb and flow it always has. I have a bottle of brightwell nitrates and phosphates on hand but trying to keep a slow steady hand with this. No real change in corals so far. but thats because the chaeto is probably sucking up anything extra. Still poci, acro, milli all just there with good PE not the best color and hardly noticable growth. will give time.
One idea i did have is to run tank, remove chaeto. put in a rubbermaid with the h380 on a gooseneck over it and add some of those nutrients to it. Simultaneously, just keep on feeding tank with skimmer off. and let nutrients build. I should have the icp anaysis in today or tomorrow. I am mostly concerned about the Sb but they rest should be informative as well. I did just after a huge 50% water change (Sb again) so will prob show as NSW. but we will see.
I'm old school.. most of the time that is good. but I can see now that the huge water changes I've been doing have been like a tidal wave of alkalinity and keep nutrients low. Especially with Red sea coral pro salt. I will be switching my salt when this bucket is done. something more in line with current tank parameters. Ph seems to have the same ebb and flow it always has. I have a bottle of brightwell nitrates and phosphates on hand but trying to keep a slow steady hand with this. No real change in corals so far. but thats because the chaeto is probably sucking up anything extra. Still poci, acro, milli all just there with good PE not the best color and hardly noticable growth. will give time.
One idea i did have is to run tank, remove chaeto. put in a rubbermaid with the h380 on a gooseneck over it and add some of those nutrients to it. Simultaneously, just keep on feeding tank with skimmer off. and let nutrients build. I should have the icp anaysis in today or tomorrow. I am mostly concerned about the Sb but they rest should be informative as well. I did just after a huge 50% water change (Sb again) so will prob show as NSW. but we will see.
Terry Mattson
Well-Known Member
I have had the same experience. Replace the cheap 35$ grow light with h380 and cheato growth was 4x
