Chaeto not growing

[hart24601]

I feed the display with eheim autofeeder pellets only 4x a day but just small amounts. The smallest opening on the feeder I feed the coral bbs I hatch most days more for fun.

The system is going well and I have not noticed any changes 24/7 or 12/12 in the display.

DT shots:

 

[hart24601]

Here is ph graph. Been warm so no windows open recently which hurts the low end.

 

[Subsea]

Without an oxygen meter, it’s difficult to prove the point of oxygen efficiency of macro refugium between 24 hour lighting and 12 hour. Your display tank is gorgeous. In your case, I doubt that it matters either way. In marginal managed systems, opposite phyto periods make a good difference.

 

[hart24601]

Without an oxygen meter, it’s difficult to prove the point of oxygen efficiency of macro refugium between 24 hour lighting and 12 hour. Your display tank is gorgeous. In your case, I doubt that it matters either way. In marginal managed systems, opposite phyto periods make a good difference.

I would be really curious to those that have seen a difference in display health with 24 vs 12 Refugium lighting while they also run skimmers and have high flow tanks, 50x or higher in DT. I can see a potential impact of no skimmer and low flow, but the gas exchange of modern skimmer is substantial and many tanks have a huge amount of surface exchange and flow in the DT. I would love to see if there is a phenotypic difference vs just a test kit difference.

 

[hart24601]

For the record and any interested parties reading, I am not advocating any overall lighting system or schedule for a refugium. I am a fan of looking at individual systems and making changes based on those specific systems and then watching closely to see results, if any, before making other changes. And perhaps the hardest part, being objective in that observation, we often wish to see only positive changes after we adopt a new strategy or equipment or product.

 

[Subsea]

I would be really curious to those that have seen a difference in display health with 24 vs 12 Refugium lighting while they also run skimmers and have high flow tanks, 50x or higher in DT. I can see a potential impact of no skimmer and low flow, but the gas exchange of modern skimmer is substantial and many tanks have a huge amount of surface exchange and flow in the DT. I would love to see if there is a phenotypic difference vs just a test kit difference.

This conversation is very similar to a conversation I had with Dana Riddle about how to go about proving cause & effect using phytoplankton dosing as a form of nutrient management. He did it without a doubt using biodiversity of system health as his barometer for evaluating success. @Dana Riddle level of experience, I can hold on to that success. Your 70G display is your proof of your success.

Dana,
Do you have any thoughts on 24 hr lighting in a macro refugium.

 

[Pistondog]

I had chaeto in my tank a while ago and it only grew a little bit, a lot of died off when i treated the tank with flucanozle for bryopsis. Tank was also treated with vibrant so that didn't help. I had since gotten a new batch of chaeto and it has not grown in the past 2-3 months.

It has not died but it hasnt grown either, its a dark green color and kind of in small bunch strand rather than big loose bright green strand.

my nitrates are sitting around 15 and phosphate being .35

my sps is colored up even at this high nutrient level but I wanted to get my colors out.

any advice??

Had good success with vibrant, took about 8 weeks, dosing every week. It is an algae eating bacteria, so will eat chaeto too if you have dosed in the last 2 months.
Dosing nutrients makes no sense to me as these macros evolved in a low nutrient environment. Will they grow faster, yes, but not required.
Get a stupid bright horticulture light.

 

[Dana Riddle]

This conversation is very similar to a conversation I had with Dana Riddle about how to go about proving cause & effect using phytoplankton dosing as a form of nutrient management. He did it without a doubt using biodiversity of system health as his barometer for evaluating success. @Dana Riddle level of experience, I can hold on to that success. Your 70G display is your proof of your success.

Dana,
Do you have any thoughts on 24 hr lighting in a macro refugium.

I'm illuminating Chaeto 24 hours/day in a sump of a 90-gallon reef, using an old BuildMyLED strip that was in the lab. Works fine for me.

 

[Subsea]

I'm illuminating Chaeto 24 hours/day in a sump of a 90-gallon reef, using an old BuildMyLED strip that was in the lab. Works fine for me.

why did you choose 24 hour lighting of Chaeto?

one less timer?

 

[Subsea]

I'm illuminating Chaeto 24 hours/day in a sump of a 90-gallon reef, using an old BuildMyLED strip that was in the lab. Works fine for me.

I suspect with that 4’ fixture you would be on the low side of intensity. With half intensity but double photoperiod, it would accumulat same number of photons.

Do you grow phytoplankton on 24 hr cycle?

 

[Dana Riddle]

why did you choose 24 hour lighting of Chaeto?

one less timer?

It was more of a matter of 'Let's see if this works' when I chose the 24-hour cycle. I'm not certain - it's been many years - but I think I was influenced by David Chai and his husbandry of the magnificent Hawaii coral reef tank at the Hualalai/4 Seasons resort in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii.

 

[Subsea]

It was more of a matter of 'Let's see if this works' when I chose the 24-hour cycle. I'm not certain - it's been many years - but I think I was influenced by David Chai and his husbandry of the magnificent Hawaii coral reef tank at the Hualalai/4 Seasons resort in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii.

Similarly, I have operated 24 hr, opposite photoperiod, same photoperiod. Now I operate Cryptic refugium.

Without robust instrumentation and strict laboratory protocol to evaluate, it’s anybody’s educated guess. @Lasse may have some educated test results to evaluate 24 hour refugium lighting.

Laissez, are you our “expert” in this area?

Danish philosophe, Niles Bohr, said "an expert is someone who has made every possible mistake in a narrow field of expertise" was not a swede”

 

[Lasse]

Do you grow phytoplankton on 24 hr cycle?

We do it at work but we can have a pH and too high oxygen problem now and then - resulting in crashing culture. Lately - we have start to aerate the cultures heavily in order to get away from exceeded oxygen and too high pH (CO2 into the culture from ambient air)

Without robust instrumentation and strict laboratory protocol to evaluate, it’s anybody’s educated guess. @Lasse may have some educated test results to evaluate 24 hour refugium lighting.

With higher plants it have been shown that in the long run and in a high light radiation it is important with a dark period. However: every year north of the arctic circle it shows that plant can grow very well under the midnight sun. The best potatoes in Sweden (IMO) is grown there during a very short period. The north Atlantic - even above the arctic circle is one of the most productive seas in the world. And all starts with phytoplankton. I think that the combination of relative warm water (the golf stream) and 24 h light is one of the factors

There is some evidences that most higher plants have a roof how much photons they can process during a 24 hours period and when the roof is hit - it just shout down the photosynthesis

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

We do it at work but we can have a pH and too high oxygen problem now and then - resulting in crashing culture. Lately - we have start to aerate the cultures heavily in order to get away from exceeded oxygen and too high pH (CO2 into the culture from ambient air)


With higher plants it have been shown that in the long run and in a high light radiation it is important with a dark period. However: every year north of the arctic circle it shows that plant can grow very well under the midnight sun. The best potatoes in Sweden (IMO) is grown there during a very short period. The north Atlantic - even above the arctic circle is one of the most productive seas in the world. And all starts with phytoplankton. I think that the combination of relative warm water (the golf stream) and 24 h light is one of the factors

There is some evidences that most higher plants have a roof how much photons they can process during a 24 hours period and when the roof is hit - it just shout down the photosynthesis

Sincerely Lasse

During my early informative years, the best pot to smoke came from the midnight sun in Alaska. Go figure.

Actually, @Dana Riddle has some articles published on photo inhibitation of hard corals under intense light.

 

[Subsea]

I would be really curious to those that have seen a difference in display health with 24 vs 12 Refugium lighting while they also run skimmers and have high flow tanks, 50x or higher in DT. I can see a potential impact of no skimmer and low flow, but the gas exchange of modern skimmer is substantial and many tanks have a huge amount of surface exchange and flow in the DT. I would love to see if there is a phenotypic difference vs just a test kit difference.

With a 50 fold turnover rate & a powerful protein skimmer, your SPS tank is most likely already at 100% oxygen saturation. I haven’t had a protein skimmer in 40yrs, so I rely on robust gas exchange in cascading water that goes into refugium.

 

[attiland]

During my early informative years, the best pot to smoke came from the midnight sun in Alaska. Go figure.

Actually, @Dana Riddle has some articles published on photo inhibitation of hard corals under intense light.

Are we talking chaeto here?

 

[Subsea]

Are we talking chaeto here?

Initially, @anthony987 was talking Chaeto, then 24/7 photoperiod was brought up, then Lassie talked about the best potatoes grown in Sweden were in the land of the midnight sun and I added that during my youth the best pot I consumed was in the land of midnight sun in Alaska.

 

[jda]

I skimmed this thread, so my apologies if I missed something, but Iron is a key that most people miss. Mine grows out of the tank and I find all of this to work great... not too high of N or P, iron dosing or water changes (for iron), low flow in the fuge, prune it. I use 12 hour lighting, but I also had good results when using more. Mine slows down when I don't prune it or I go a while without changing water or adding iron.

You can growth inhibit all macro with higher levels of N and P and chaeto seems to slow down about .2-.25P.. not stop, but slow down. N seems to need to be above 50 to make a huge dent. You can bet that it grows a lot faster with lower levels. Unlike corals (microalgae) that mostly cannot really use nitrate without converting it, macro can use it directly.

 

[ClownWrangler]

I skimmed this thread, so my apologies if I missed something, but Iron is a key that most people miss. Mine grows out of the tank and I find all of this to work great... not too high of N or P, iron dosing or water changes (for iron), low flow in the fuge, prune it. I use 12 hour lighting, but I also had good results when using more. Mine slows down when I don't prune it or I go a while without changing water or adding iron.

You can growth inhibit all macro with higher levels of N and P and chaeto seems to slow down about .2-.25P.. not stop, but slow down. N seems to need to be above 50 to make a huge dent. You can bet that it grows a lot faster with lower levels. Unlike corals (microalgae) that mostly cannot really use nitrate without converting it, macro can use it directly.

ChaetoGro was talked about, which contains Iron, but I'm not sure its enough. 0.23% by weight along with other metals and potassium. The only time I have ever had issues with Chaeto not growing, but rather crumbling was with low flow. This stuff really loves flow and seams to be invincible otherwise, unless you kill it with chemicals or it runs out of nitrates. If nitrates are low and its not growing, that's not a problem, that's just equilibrium in action.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Pretty much all plants and algaes use Nitrogen, Phosphorus and potassium at a fixed ratio and every species is slightly different in its needs. If nitrates run out, it can not absorb phosphates and it stops growing, if phosphates run out, it can not absorb nitrates and it stops growing. The key is finding the balance. If phosphates are high and nitrates are low, dosing nitrates (carefully) can reduce phosphates in a system with Chaeto growing. The reverse is also true. Then there is iron and other trace elements, which ChaetoGro covers well.