Chaeto Reactors compared to Algae Scrubbers

[Z3speed4me]

I don't understand where ulva "comes from" for all of you people if it didn't exist in the tank prior to the scrubber... how would it possibly just appear out of nowhere unless somehow introduced to your tank? That's like saying dragon's breath would just show up unless i added some somehow.

Unless seeded it makes no logical sense that a previously non-existent form of algae would just show up on its own.

 

[atoll]

I don't understand where ulva "comes from" for all of you people if it didn't exist in the tank prior to the scrubber... how would it possibly just appear out of nowhere unless somehow introduced to your tank? That's like saying dragon's breath would just show up unless i added some somehow.

Unless seeded it makes no logical sense that a previously non-existent form of algae would just show up on its own.

See post number 97 above. Also, algae spores etc come in on corals and rockwork that you won't or can't see. I have stated before in my case I seeded my ATS screen with the Ulva.

 

[Newb73]

To be fair, I have ALL KINDS of life in my tank that I don't recall adding.

Hitchhikers most likely.

 

[Z3speed4me]

Agreed, tons of stuff shows up randomly. But with nothing changed in a system and all new corals coming from reputable places like unique, jason fox, etc who QT stuff for months and you know there's nothing on them, why would ulva not grow in the tank otherwise for years, but then decide to randomly start to do so in a scrubber?

I'd love to seed ulva in my ATS, but nobody around me has any to share...

 

[hart24601]

I'm glad yours is working out. How "small" is your fuge that you are pumping 1500 gallons per hours through it?

My H380 was 4 inches away from the cheato, it was hard to keep it from bleaching and I don't want to go in and flip cheato every few days - I barely want to change filter socks every few days.

My cheato grows fine being lite from the top only. I don't have the space to light it from the sides.

Having a h380 as well I would suspect the chaeto got "cooked" as I had a similar issue until I raised the light a bit and increased flow. That light has serious power (90w) in a small area and it's hot to put your hand in front of it. I have heard for years about how chaeto dies from heat if touching a heater as well.

It might not seem like a big difference, but I do think it's helpful to state that the chaeto can be overheated pretty easily, but it's not really bleaching from too much light. It really grows quick in 1500-2000 PAR just have to keep it cool.

I think these debates over efficiency tend to get a bit silly. So are we talking about purely which algae grows faster in any conditions? Or are we talking about in a scrubber how much flow and wattage of lights? All the same? How is the scrubber powered, from the drain or with a dedicated pump - if dedicated pump should we talk about increasing the wattage on the chaeto so the total watts of the system are equal? How about expandability? Something like a h380 or Chinese black box can cover a very large area - if looking at the total export capability for the wattage of lights that is going to be hard to beat if you have a huge sump. How does each perform if you have the power out for 2hr, how much work is the upkeep and harvest? Potential for clogging? How about growth rate after harvest - I can pull out various percentage of chaeto from a sump just fine. How is a scrubbers uptake when the screen is cleaned? Clearly it will not have the same export at that time.

There are pros and cons to most things in the hobby, just look at each with an open mind and remember there are many things to consider. Look at peoples tanks that you like and check their export system.

Then we have to ask, does it even really matter? Ideally for either system we want something that can handle the bioload with good general maintenance. Neither one of these if going to make a neglected and overfed, overstocked tank perfect for huge acro colonies. If you have a suitable export system, which there are plenty of examples of what is working for people with different bioloads, who cares if you have two tank next to each other have different systems but each is .01 phosphate and 1ppm nitrate? Each system should be considered on its own for export sizing - maybe this scrubber can handle 1 cube a day and so can this fuge setup or chaeto reactor. Great, now pick which one you feel complements your system best. As I said above it gets tricky to define which one is really more efficient even in this scenario.

 

[Turbo's Aquatics Verified Sponsor]

I always call green hair algae microalgae. That may or may not be correct, but I've not seen any species identification for it to know for sure. I don't typically use the term filamentous to distinguish different forms in a reef tank, but just because an algae is filamentous does not mean it isn't also a microalgae (as the term is used by scientists):

Integration process of biodiesel production from filamentous oleaginous microalgae Tribonema minus
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960852413008183

I am apparently talking out of my behind without stating ahead of time that this is possible. My wife complains about this often. Thanks for the clarification @Randy Holmes-Farley!

I always generally classified Micro as cellular (floating, etc) and Macro as non-cellular (generally, filamentous). For purposes of discussing algae filtration methods in aquaria, this is probably "good enough" even though it's not technically accurate.

I don't understand where ulva "comes from" for all of you people if it didn't exist in the tank prior to the scrubber... how would it possibly just appear out of nowhere unless somehow introduced to your tank?

algae spores etc come in on corals and rockwork that you won't or can't see. I have stated before in my case I seeded my ATS screen with the Ulva.

Algal spores can also come in through the salt mix you use, or the air. Algae is one of the most primitive forms of life on earth, and it's literally everywhere.

 

[Newb73]

Having a h380 as well I would suspect the chaeto got "cooked" as I had a similar issue until I raised the light a bit and increased flow. That light has serious power (90w) in a small area and it's hot to put your hand in front of it. I have heard for years about how chaeto dies from heat if touching a heater as well.

It might not seem like a big difference, but I do think it's helpful to state that the chaeto can be overheated pretty easily, but it's not really bleaching from too much light. It really grows quick in 1500-2000 PAR just have to keep it cool.

I think these debates over efficiency tend to get a bit silly. So are we talking about purely which algae grows faster in any conditions? Or are we talking about in a scrubber how much flow and wattage of lights? All the same? How is the scrubber powered, from the drain or with a dedicated pump - if dedicated pump should we talk about increasing the wattage on the chaeto so the total watts of the system are equal? How about expandability? Something like a h380 or Chinese black box can cover a very large area - if looking at the total export capability for the wattage of lights that is going to be hard to beat if you have a huge sump. How does each perform if you have the power out for 2hr, how much work is the upkeep and harvest? Potential for clogging? How about growth rate after harvest - I can pull out various percentage of chaeto from a sump just fine. How is a scrubbers uptake when the screen is cleaned? Clearly it will not have the same export at that time.

There are pros and cons to most things in the hobby, just look at each with an open mind and remember there are many things to consider. Look at peoples tanks that you like and check their export system.

Then we have to ask, does it even really matter? Ideally for either system we want something that can handle the bioload with good general maintenance. Neither one of these if going to make a neglected and overfed, overstocked tank perfect for huge acro colonies. If you have a suitable export system, which there are plenty of examples of what is working for people with different bioloads, who cares if you have two tank next to each other have different systems but each is .01 phosphate and 1ppm nitrate? Each system should be considered on its own for export sizing - maybe this scrubber can handle 1 cube a day and so can this fuge setup or chaeto reactor. Great, now pick which one you feel complements your system best. As I said above it gets tricky to define which one is really more efficient even in this scenario.

How low was It? I have an H350 (90watts) up against an H80 (15 watts) for a total of 105Watts over a small fuge and haven't had bleaching.

Agreed, tons of stuff shows up randomly. But with nothing changed in a system and all new corals coming from reputable places like unique, jason fox, etc who QT stuff for months and you know there's nothing on them, why would ulva not grow in the tank otherwise for years, but then decide to randomly start to do so in a scrubber?

I'd love to seed ulva in my ATS, but nobody around me has any to share...

I am not convinced QT really does what conventional wisdom says it does.

I have 4 tangs in my system and can go 6 months without sign of parasites and then suddenly one of them will get a smidge of classic marine ich for a few days.

The QT period of the observation safety zone for when it's supposed to be safe is only 4 to 8 weeks...after that a fish is supposed to be disease free yet that is absolutely not true from an observational stand point....

I wouldn't be surprised if it were also true for corals and even nuisance algae.

 

[hart24601]

How low was It? I have an H350 (90watts) up against an H80 (15 watts) for a total of 105Watts over a small fuge and haven't had bleaching.

I am not convinced QT really does what conventional wisdom says it does.

I have 4 tangs in my system and can go 6 months without sign of parasites and then suddenly one of them will get a smidge of classic marine ich for a few days.

The QT period of the observation safety zone for when it's supposed to be safe is only 4 to 8 weeks...after that a fish is supposed to be disease free yet that is absolutely not true from an observational stand point....

I wouldn't be surprised if it were also true for corals and even nuisance algae.

The light was maybe 4" over the top of the floating mass and the algae was not warm but hot from the light being that close. I moved it to 12" or so and had no more issues. I wouldn't call he chaeto bleached, it was just dead and turned white. I say that because on this site at least we think of coral bleaching, which can be easily recovered from, but this is different and really just cooked - not all of it turned white and died, just where it was hot at the surface.

 

[gregkn73]

In both my reefs, chaeto always coexist with the heater into the sump, with no damage at all!

 

[hart24601]

In both my reefs, chaeto always coexist with the heater into the sump, with no damage at all!

I should have clarified that issues I heard reported with not from sharing the sump, but from direct contact with the heater such as being wrapped around it. Of course with enough flow the effects would be mitigated and it’s unlikely anything any life would be able to live with direct contact with the heater as they do get quite hot with direct contact.

It was, however, what led me to checking the temp of the chaeto when 4” away from the h380 and partially floating above the waterline.

 

[gregkn73]

I should have clarified that issues I heard reported with not from sharing the sump, but from direct contact with the heater such as being wrapped around it. Of course with enough flow the effects would be mitigated and it’s unlikely anything any life would be able to live with direct contact with the heater as they do get quite hot with direct contact.

It was, however, what led me to checking the temp of the chaeto when 4” away from the h380 and partially floating above the waterline.

In both reefs was and is in direct contact with heater, with no visible damage. Flow was and is plenty on the other hand.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Agreed, tons of stuff shows up randomly. But with nothing changed in a system and all new corals coming from reputable places like unique, jason fox, etc who QT stuff for months and you know there's nothing on them, why would ulva not grow in the tank otherwise for years, but then decide to randomly start to do so in a scrubber?

I'd love to seed ulva in my ATS, but nobody around me has any to share...

It actually happens regularly in my tank. I will go years without seeing certain macroalgae types. Then some will reappear and grow well for a while before usually vanishing again. I suspect some macroalgae thrive under more narrow tank conditions than other macroalgae. Maybe there is one limiting nutrient or other macroalgae or corals normally out-compete that algae for nutrients. Who knows. But the spores seem rather eternal.

 

[TbyZ]

I don't understand where ulva "comes from" for all of you people if it didn't exist in the tank prior to the scrubber... how would it possibly just appear out of nowhere unless somehow introduced to your tank? That's like saying dragon's breath would just show up unless i added some somehow.

Unless seeded it makes no logical sense that a previously non-existent form of algae would just show up on its own.

I have always used natural sea water in my tank but never had ulva show up at all in the four years prior to starting with a downflow scrubber.
Its magic

 

[atoll]

I have always used natural sea water in my tank but never had ulva show up at all in the four years prior to starting with a downflow scrubber.
Its magic

It simply might not be present nor the spores in the area you collect you seawater from.The guy I got my Ulva from uses natural seawater collected locally to him and the Ulva just showed up on his screen without purposely seeding it.

 

[TbyZ]

It simply might not be present nor the spores in the area you collect you seawater from.The guy I got my Ulva from uses natural seawater collected locally to him and the Ulva just showed up on his screen without purposely seeding it.

Maybe the NSW or spores in the live rock?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

At least 250 grams algea must be harvested to remove 1 gram nitrate or 1 ppm out of a 1000 litre aquarium. The same time 0.005ppm phosphate is assimilated. As it assimilates not only nitrate nitrogen but also ammonia nitrogen it increases the live support capacity of the system, when harvested in time.
As it is not very effective in removing nitrogen compounds from the system and both needs daily attention, planning for farming and harvesting, I would go for the cheapest of both options.

 

[atoll]

Maybe the NSW or spores in the live rock?

Almost definitely spores in the water he collects as there is Ulva growing there.

 

[atoll]

At least 250 grams algea must be harvested to remove 1 gram nitrate or 1 ppm out of a 1000 litre aquarium. The same time 0.005ppm phosphate is assimilated. As it assimilates not only nitrate nitrogen but also ammonia nitrogen it increases the live support capacity of the system, when harvested in time.
As it is not very effective in removing nitrogen compounds from the system and both needs daily attention, planning for farming and harvesting, I would go for the cheapest of both options.

I regularly harvest over 400 grammes of various algae weekly

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, something that looks like the ulva on these ATS grows in the ocean in Massachusetts, and my tangs loved it.

 

[atoll]

FWIW, something that looks like the ulva on these ATS grows in the ocean in Massachusetts, and my tangs loved it.

Ulva including Intestinalis is found in many tropical and subtropical seas and oceans around the world. Here in the UK there is hardly an area of the coats that does not contain this remarkable fast growing algae. In my ATS is grows at the rate of around 1.5" every 24 hours. With speed of growth brings speed of nutrient reduction.

http://www.marlin.ac.uk/species/detail/1469

http://www.algaebase.org/search/species/detail/?species_id=12904