Chaeto Trimming and Nitrates

[cjpitt80]

In general, when/how much chaeto should be trimmed to reduce nitrate level? I'm currently at about 25ppm NO3 (Red Sea). The chaeto in my fuge is to the point where it no longer rotates. If I trim and remove some, should I expect to see a drop in nitrate levels? I'd like to have around 2-5ppm for my mixed reef. This is a 75g DT with a 29g sump. Chaeto section is about 8g. Should I trim enough to get it rotating again then keep the light on 24/7 to get it to take up more nutrients? Right now the fuge light is on about 11hrs a day opposite DT light. I see a little bit of GHA in the DT. Thanks

 

[MabuyaQ]

Chaeto consumes nitrate, so reducing the amount of Chaeto will reduce consumption. So with an equal amount of production NO3 will increase not decrease.

 

[cjpitt80]

Chaeto consumes nitrate, so reducing the amount of Chaeto will reduce consumption. So with an equal amount of production NO3 will increase not decrease.

So continue to let it grow? I'm only removing NO3 when I get rid of the plant material, right? I'd like to LOWER nitrates in the water column, so I thought at some point I'd have to remove some chaeto. It will use up NO3 from the tank as it grows. Is this right?

 

[W1ngz]

Cutting it just enough so it tumbles will probably allow it to remove more nitrate from the water, if you have a large ball.

The reason for this is when it's still, only the well lit areas will be efficient at it, and only if there is good flow through it. If the water flows best through the unlit area of the chaeto, then it's not efficient at all.

If it's tumbling, think of it like a rotisserie chicken, compared to a broiler. Well cooked on all sides, not just the top.

 

[Crossfire]

The cheato is removing nitrate constantly (mostly during it's lighting schedule) while it's in your system. It consumes nutrients and elements (including nitrate) in order to grow. What should happen is while your cheato grows, your nitrates drop. Removing the cheato doesn't automatically make your nitrates drop; It removes a section of the macro algae that has already consumed the nitrates out of your system. This is usually performed when the cheato gets too large or has removed enough nutrients from your system to where you want them to be.

You can increase your lighting schedule in your refugium or do water changes to remove nitrates.

 

[cjpitt80]

The cheato is removing nitrate 24/7 (during it's lighting schedule) while it's in your system. It consumes nutrients and elements (including nitrate) in order to grow. What should happen is while your cheato grows, your nitrates drop. Removing the cheato doesn't automatically make your nitrates drop; It removes a section of the macro algae that has already consumed the nitrates out of your system. This is usually performed when the cheato gets too large or has removed enough nutrients from your system to where you want them to be.

Right that's kinda what I was thinking. I need to remove enough to get it slowly tumbling again. I had actually gotten a little lazy testing nitrates as they stayed pretty steady at 5ppm. I hadn't done so in about 3 weeks and found it to be at 20-25ppm. I gotta get better at testing, I want some SPS ;-0

 

[clm65]

It does consume nitrate as well as phosphate as it grows. Trimming it gives it more room to grow. I can't argue against tumbling leading to more efficient nutrient removal, but my chaeto has never tumbled. My refugium is long and fairly wide, but not too deep. Plus I have some rocks and Matrix on the bottom. So it grows in a shape that does not support tumbling. But it does grow quick, it is just shaped more like a brick.

 

[BeejReef]

You might want to increase your photoperiod and make sure you have enough phosphate for the chaeto to grow, though that doesn't sound like your issue, cuz it is growing.

The way I read it, trimming the chaeto is, indeed, how you "remove" nutrients from the system. That doesn't mean it will lower your levels though. It means that you've taken a hunk of organic matter out of your system. Now it can never die in there, or be consumed by other creatures, and release waste into the tank.

If you let your chaeto grow way out of control, the permanently shaded areas can die off and release N and P like any dead organism. Not typically a concern.

trying to answer simply, trimming doesn't reduce levels, it reduces total nutrients in system. To drive down levels, add more light, light longer, or add enough flow that a bigger ball will still tumble... IMHO

 

[Crossfire]

I don't know if anyone else has used it but I use a product called algone in my system which I replace every 2 weeks. I bought it on amazon after my cycle to help reduce my nitrates after a large water change. It has been pretty amazing.

I wasn't planning on continually running it, but I replace a small pack of it every 2 weeks and my nitrates are always below 5. I have a lot of acropora and montis in my mixed reef and everything is growing so well. I don't know what the heck is in algone, but it seems to work. I'd recommend trying it out.

 

[cjpitt80]

Yeah. PO4 levels are ugh... Have a WHOLE 'nother post on that. I think maybe the lower portions are dying off and boosting NO3 levels. Last time I trimmed, it only gently tumbled for about a week before it was too big to move (flow still "looked" good thru it). There's def detritus/gunk on the bottom so I guess I'll trim and vacuum up a lil

 

[cjpitt80]

I don't know if anyone else has used it but I use a product called algone in my system which I replace every 2 weeks. I bought it on amazon after my cycle to help reduce my nitrates after a large water change. It has been pretty amazing.

I wasn't planning on continually running it, but I replace a small pack of it every 2 weeks and my nitrates are always below 5. I have a lot of acropora and montis in my mixed reef and everything is growing so well. I don't know what the heck is in algone, but it seems to work. I'd recommend trying it out.

TRYING to do everything as "naturally" as possible. I think I overused Brightwell Phosphat-e and caused more problems than high PO4 was giving me originally

 

[Crossfire]

TRYING to do everything as "naturally" as possible. I think I overused Brightwell Phosphat-e and caused more problems than high PO4 was giving me originally

I think algone is a type of hay or something like that for bacteria to use. I think it's natural and not a chemical. If anyone knows what it is, I'd love to know. I opened one of the packets and it looked like straw or something lol. No idea what it is, but it works for me.

It reduces nitrates slowly, which I like. My guess is that it supports bacteria.

 

[cjpitt80]

I think algone is a type of hay or something like that for bacteria to use. I think it's natural and not a chemical. If anyone knows what it is, I'd love to know. I opened one of the packets and it looked like straw or something lol. No idea what it is, but it works for me.

It reduces nitrates slowly, which I like. My guess is that it supports bacteria.

Yeah. Website as everything possible except WHAT the heck it is LOL. I would agree with you, some type of nitrate reducing bacteria. I may give it a try. Right now I only have a few acans, euphyllia, and zoas so i don't think I'm quite at "critical" level yet

 

[DarkSky]

Chaeto consumes nitrate, so reducing the amount of Chaeto will reduce consumption. So with an equal amount of production NO3 will increase not decrease.

While this sounds logical, I'm going to disagree.

I have a 75g sump with a majority of the space dedicated to a chaeto refugium. When my nitrates start to creep upwards, I harvest half or more of my chaeto. This causes my nitrates to plummet fairly rapidly.

I fairly certain thinning out the chaeto allows more surface area to receive light, so chaeto lower in the refugium can utilize nutrients in the water to grow. There's probably a limit to what you can trim before you start reducing the amount of nutrients that are pulled from the water, but it's probably some sort of bell curve and when you allow your chaeto to get too dense you'll be way too far right on that curve.

 

[cjpitt80]

While this sounds logical, I'm going to disagree.

I have a 75g sump with a majority of the space dedicated to a chaeto refugium. When my nitrates start to creep upwards, I harvest half or more of my chaeto. This causes my nitrates to plummet fairly rapidly.

I fairly certain thinning out the chaeto allows more surface area to receive light, so chaeto lower in the refugium can utilize nutrients in the water to grow. There's probably a limit to what you can trim before you start reducing the amount of nutrients that are pulled from the water, but it's probably some sort of bell curve and when you allow your chaeto to get too dense you'll be way too far right on that curve.

Dang a 75g SUMP? how big is the display? So consensus (and what I've been reading other places) seems to be that I should indeed trim SOME chaeto to allow it to grow back and therefore use some NO3 in the process of growing, as I may currently be approaching the upper limit of having it grow (particularly in the darker areas) and it's not as efficient at taking up NO3/PO4 from the water column since it is no longer tumbling and about half of it is consistently dark.

 

[BeejReef]

I think you're both essentially correct and we're all just talking about chaeto that is receiving proper conditions and has adequate space to grow

EDIT.. sorry, posted as you did OP. Not trying to answer for Darksky.
There's also a full-throated debate on whether to tumble a smaller ball of chaeto or to embrace the big thick blob!

 

[CindyKz]

Also, my understanding is that macroalgae takes up nutrients as it grows, then the nutrients are bound into the plant and thus unavailable to the water. IOW, the NO3 and PO4 are trapped in the plant, removing the plant from the water doesn't change the NO3 or PO4 levels in the water.


Since the macroalgae takes up NO3 and PO4 as part of the growth process, it makes more sense that macroalgae that has more room and light to grow in will take up more and levels in the water would drop. On the other side of the coin, the more plant mass you have the more growing plant there is. So I agree that there is a sweet spot that will differ based on tank conditions.

I've never seen much change in nutrient levels when I thin macroalgae. I have seen differences when I've changed my photoperiod.

ETA: sorry seems we are all responding at once. It does make sense that the more macroalgae you have (75 gal! wow) the more effect you'll see.

 

[acro-ed]

There is definitely a sweet spot to be found with your tank's continued production of waste and the balance of residual nutrients once they have been utilized and stored within the algae.

I have a 2x2 fuge with several types of algae (including chaeto). Mine does not tumble. Water flows in one side from a submerged pipe and the opposite 2' end is a full length weir where it flows back to the return pump. The algae is one massive entanglement totally filling the fuge, top to bottom and side to side.

If I harvest too much at once my nitrates DO rise. I don't really test the phosphate anymore but I imagine it would also rise.

Likewise, I want to keep harvesting periodically to remove the nutrients being stored in the algae and encourage continued growth/nutrient removal.

I have found that I am best served to remove a little bit regularly rather than ripping out too much at once.

 

[DarkSky]

Dang a 75g SUMP? how big is the display? So consensus (and what I've been reading other places) seems to be that I should indeed trim SOME chaeto to allow it to grow back and therefore use some NO3 in the process of growing, as I may currently be approaching the upper limit of having it grow (particularly in the darker areas) and it's not as efficient at taking up NO3/PO4 from the water column since it is no longer tumbling and about half of it is consistently dark.

I have a 220g peninsula, 6' long x 30" wide x 24" tall, lit by a 8 bulb ATI Powermodule. It's going to be SPS dominant; I've just started adding frags in February. The rock has been wet for about 18 months prior to any coral going in the tank; 12 months in a curing tank and 6 months in the DT.

It grows coraline well!

 

[CMO]

Trimming Chaeto regularly definitely helps encourage new growth and reduction of nutrients better than if left untrimmed IME. I've run Triton tanks for a few years now and experimented with trimming and not trimming. If left untrimmed the chaeto will eventually grow into a thick mat that inhibits new growth and nutrient removal abilities. At this point the chaeto will start to die off partially and make an absolute mess as it disintegrates. Eventually enough will die to allow new growth and the cycle will continue of growth / die off. So yes chaeto is self-regulating, however it's messy and does not provide optimal nutrient removal when left too its own accord. I now trim my chaeto about every 2 weeks to keep it somewhat loose and growing fast. This provides both better nutrient reduction capabilities and also prevents die backs which are messy and clog pumps / sump teeth. For maximum nutrient reduction you should let the chaeto grow as large as possible to fill the fuge space but not to the point that it starts to mat up and get super dense.