ChaetoGro & Iodine

[Subsea]

Considering iodine uptake by seaweed, why isn’t iodine included in ChaetoGro?

When reviewing ingredients for ChaetoGro, website says, “Provides 13 elements critical to long-term health, growth, and coloration of aquatic plants.” Yet, I only find twelve listed.

Potassium - Protein synthesis, water and charge balance, enzyme activation.
Boron - Chlorophyll production, flowering, root growth, cell function.
Carbon - Required for all organic compounds.
Calcium - Cell wall stability and permeability, enzyme activation, cell response to stimuli.
Chlorine - Water and charge balance, photosynthesis.
Iron - Required for photosynthesis, component of enzymes utilized in redox reactions.
Magnesium - Component of chlorophyll, enzyme activation.
Manganese - Formation of amino acids, enzyme activation.
Molybdenum and Cobalt - Required for nitrate reduction.
Nickel - Enzyme activation, processing of nitrogenous material.
Sulfur - Component of proteins and the coenzymes that are involved with nutrient utilization and growth.
Zinc - Chlorophyll production, enzyme activation.
[ChaetoGro does not contain phosphorus or nitrogen]

Analysis of iodine content in seaweed by GC-ECD and estimation of iodine intake

Edible seaweed products have been consumed in many Asian countries. Edible seaweeds accumulate iodine from seawater, and are therefore a good dietary …

www.sciencedirect.com

Table 1. Iodine concentration (mg/kg) in dry seaweed products by GC-ECD.

Product type	No. 1	No. 2	No. 3	No. 4	No. 5	No. 6	No. 7	No. 8	No. 9	No. 10	Average (mg/kg)
Nori	45.8	34	40.7	29.3	33.3	39.1	37.9	36.8	31.1	41.4	36.9
Origin	Taiwan	Japan	Taiwan	Thailand	Thailand	Korea	Taiwan	Japan	Thailand	Taiwan
Wakame	104.2	156.7	185.1	93.9	118.2	102.8	156.7	152.2	162.1	165.1	139.7
Origin	China	China	Japan	Japan	Japan	Taiwan	China	China	China	China
Kombu	4921.3	303.2	3297.7	1764.4	2250.8	4384.8	241	2236.2	3541.6	2291.6	2523.3
Origin	Korea	Japan	Japan	Japan	Japan	Korea	Japan	China	Taiwan	Taiwan

GC-ECD = gas chromatography-electron capture detector.

 

[vetteguy53081]

A little iodine isnt bad but it is iron and manganese are more important.

 

[Subsea]

When I had Gracilaria Parvispora tested
Fe was 107ppm
Mn was 20ppm

Analysis of iodine content in seaweed by GC-ECD and estimation of iodine intake

Edible seaweed products have been consumed in many Asian countries. Edible seaweeds accumulate iodine from seawater, and are therefore a good dietary …

www.sciencedirect.com

At the time, Ward Lab testing did not include iodine.

From Table 1 below the following ediable seaweeds containe significant amounts iodine.
Nori @ 45ppm
Wakame at 104ppm
Kombu at 492

Because I keep ornamental sponges in my display tanks, I dose iodine. I wonder if iodine could not be a limiting nutrient.

Again I ask, if seaweed absorbs iodine why isn’t it included in ChaetoGro.

 

[Reefr]

hello @Subsea
I have the exact same question and I am pretty sure the iodide uptake can be significant, even with chaeto.
Funny thing is, the ChaetoGro web page does not list iodide as an element entering the composition and iodide doesn't show up in "Guaranteed Analysis" either - BUT, potassium iodide is listed in the "Sources of Nutrients". Go figure...
Reading comments about Brightwell on r2r, including those coming from well known Reef chemists, I can't help thinking this kind of mistake wouldn't be a surprise with this company.

 

[Subsea]

hello @Subsea
I have the exact same question and I am pretty sure the iodide uptake can be significant, even with chaeto.
Funny thing is, the ChaetoGro web page does not list iodide as an element entering the composition and iodide doesn't show up in "Guaranteed Analysis" either - BUT, potassium iodide is listed in the "Sources of Nutrients". Go figure...
Reading comments about Brightwell on r2r, including those coming from well known Reef chemists, I can't help thinking this kind of mistake wouldn't be a surprise with this company.

Next time I send seaweed for analysis, I will ask laboratory to test for iodine in the dry analysis.

 

[Wasabiroot]

Just taking a shot in the dark here, but iodine is reactive; perhaps it forms undesirable precipitates when mixed with other compounds in solution like that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The uptake by algae (macro and micro) is substantial. It's likely the biggest user in a reef tank. However, my testing did not indicate a significant increase in growth rate of caulerpa racemosa or chaeto between undetectable iodine and iodine boosted to NSW levels with iodide.

I do not know why they do not include it. Iodine as I2 would be bad to add for reasons mentioned above. Iodide can slowly air oxidize to iodate and that processes might be greatly accelerated by elements such as iron.

 

[Reefr]

Considering iodine uptake by seaweed, why isn’t iodine included in ChaetoGro?

When reviewing ingredients for ChaetoGro, website says, “Provides 13 elements critical to long-term health, growth, and coloration of aquatic plants.” Yet, I only find twelve listed.

Could it be that Brightwell just forgot listing the 13th element? After all, they list KI in the sources of nutrients:

In that case, iodide would actually be present in ChaetoGro.
Perhaps testing for iodide a diluted solution would be a way to find out. Or simply asking Brightwell

@Randy Holmes-Farley : why would a company add KI to their product if not for iodide? I suppose this is not for the potassium as they already have potassium sulfate (if I wanted to diversify the source of potassium, I would have used KCl on top of K2SO4)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Could it be that Brightwell just forgot listing the 13th element? After all, they list KI in the sources of nutrients:

In that case, iodide would actually be present in ChaetoGro.
Perhaps testing for iodide a diluted solution would be a way to find out. Or simply asking Brightwell

@Randy Holmes-Farley : why would a company add KI to their product if not for iodide? I suppose this is not for the potassium as they already have potassium sulfate (if I wanted to diversify the source of potassium, I would have used KCl on top of K2SO4)

Brightwell makes many chemical mistakes. In this case, it seems they left it off the list. maybe they did not want to reveal how much iodide is present, or maybe they forgot about it. lol

 

[Reefr]

Brightwell makes many chemical mistakes. In this case, it seems they left it off the list. maybe they did not want to reveal how much iodide is present, or maybe they forgot about it. lol

Thank you Randy.

Unrelated to KI but more to dosing ChaetoGro or similar supplements: I know we are supposed to adjust dosing by looking at how the tank reacts (algae growth, etc.).

But, would it make sense to track the potassium concentration in the water, let's say every week, and adjust the ChaetoGro dose accordingly? ([K] decrease -> need more ChaetoGro and vice versa ; keeping in mind the main element in ChaetoGro is potassium)

The rationale would be: we use potassium as an indicator for chaeto growth in the same way we use alkalinity as an indicator for SPS growth and their need for other supplements.

In other words, we would make the following assumptions:
1. potassium consumption in the tank is mainly attributed to chaeto
2. potassium consumption by chaeto is proportional to the consumption of other elements by chaeto

Would this make sense and give us a more precise way of dosing supplements for macro algae?

Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I do not know if potassium is particularly sensitive to the dosing chaetogro. I never dosed any potassium and potassium stayed normal in my system. Ions such as iron are likely far more important.

 

[Reefr]

I do not know if potassium is particularly sensitive to the dosing chaetogro. I never dosed any potassium and potassium stayed normal in my system. Ions such as iron are likely far more important.

Good point, iron will be important indeed.

I thought of tracking potassium because in a nano tank with Triton and lots of chaeto, with very few corals, the Triton dosing was very small (due to low alk consumption by corals) but potassium dropped to 310 ppm and I think this is because chaeto was growing fast and taking a lot of K. I also found depletion of traces elements that I would attribute to chaeto since the small amount of traces needed by corals would have been covered by Triton dosing proportional to corals growth (alk depletion)

So in a way, Triton is supposed to cover the corals and macro algae needs but we dose it following how much alk is consumed by corals - and the 2 can often be unrelated (my example with strong macro algae growth but little corals to consume alk)

I was trying to find a way to compensate for that by dosing ChaetoGro as a function of chaeto growth, hoping potassium would be a proxy for that. Perhaps iron would be better suited in this case.

Anyway, in such a case, the usefulness of Triton would be limited and a simple 2-part dosing + ChaetoGro could achieve the same results I guess...

 

[Subsea]

Good point, iron will be important indeed.

I thought of tracking potassium because in a nano tank with Triton and lots of chaeto, with very few corals, the Triton dosing was very small (due to low alk consumption by corals) but potassium dropped to 310 ppm and I think this is because chaeto was growing fast and taking a lot of K. I also found depletion of traces elements that I would attribute to chaeto since the small amount of traces needed by corals would have been covered by Triton dosing proportional to corals growth (alk depletion)

So in a way, Triton is supposed to cover the corals and macro algae needs but we dose it following how much alk is consumed by corals - and the 2 can often be unrelated (my example with strong macro algae growth but little corals to consume alk)

I was trying to find a way to compensate for that by dosing ChaetoGro as a function of chaeto growth, hoping potassium would be a proxy for that. Perhaps iron would be better suited in this case.

Anyway, in such a case, the usefulness of Triton would be limited and a simple 2-part dosing + ChaetoGro could achieve the same results I guess...

@Reefr,
I stumbled into using a cocktail modified F/2 brew formulated for phytoplankton to feed red Ogo in a macro algae refugium 20 years ago, In 50 years of Reefing, I have had little need for high alkalinity, I choose to emulate Caribbean lagoons with ornamental seaweeds and mixed garden invertebrate. To this end, I collected along Louisiana & Texas Gulfcoast, live oyster cluster with numerous fans & feathers I could not name. During this journey before the internet, I found Jaubert Plenum which was marketed as natural nitrate reduction using facultative bacteria in a low oxygen environmen. Up until 5 years ago, that’s my story and I am sticking to it.

I now use a reverse flow undergravel filter with 2” aroggonite substrate. I replaced mud/macro algae refugiums with mud/cryptic refugiums. I add ammonia & ChaetoGrow every other day, when I remember.

I am also growing a monoculture of Gracilaria Parvispora for personnel consumption in a 20G tank. In the present setup, feeding the above mentioned cocktail, the Red Ogo doubles every 10 days. This week, I will replace 20G “vertical loop“ tumble culture with a 55G tank. If current rate is sustainable, I will produce 20 lbs a week with 55G tank.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

That is one way of dealing with nutrient export, eating the algae! We may need another sub forum for sharing GHA recipes!?

 

[Subsea]

That is one way of dealing with nutrient export, eating the algae! We may need another sub forum for sharing GHA recipes!?

I agree. It’s also one way to feed the world.

Red Ogo Seaweed

Red ogo seaweed maintains its bright red color when fresh, but turns a dark green color when cooked. This seaweed offers a nice salty ocean taste with a crispy...

www.specialtyproduce.com

Description/Taste​

Red ogo seaweed maintains its bright red color when fresh, but turns a dark green color when cooked. This seaweed offers a nice salty ocean taste with a crispy texture. Seaweed is high in potassium, iron, minerals, and calcium.

​

Nutritional Value​

Low in calories, one pound of red ogo seaweed contains about 45 calories. Providing three times the amount of potassium than bananas, red ogo seaweed is a good source of trace minerals. Studies show red ogo seaweed helps increase resistance to stress and fatigue. Mostly all sea vegetables are rich in iron, several minerals, calcium and potassium.

Applications​

Perfect marinated and added to salads or used as decorative garnish for seafood entrees. Add to sweet pickled vegetables. For an unusual salad, blend a small amount of chili oil, sesame oil and soy sauce in a mixing bowl. Adjust quantities to desired taste. Add chopped fresh red ogo and lightly toss. If desired, sprinkle with red chili flakes. Serve as a side dish, salad or as an appetizer. To protect crispy texture, rinse in cold fresh water just before use to remove much of ogo’s salty personality. Dipping in boiling water for ten seconds also diminishes saltiness and brightens the color, however, the crisp texture is reduced. Boiling water is recommended for pickling applications. To store, keep covered in a dark area up to five days. Do not store in fresh water as water will reduce shelf life and the nutritional benefits. Only rinse or prepare just before use.

Geography/History​

This very trendy sea vegetable is making a big splash especially in fine restaurants. Chefs appreciate its seafaring presentation and diners love its unique oceanic flavor. One of the larger red seaweeds in Hawaii and able to grow to sixty centimeters in length, it is believed ogo did not originate in the Hawaiian Islands where it is used in poke, a popular Hawaiian dish. Also known as limu and long ogo and of the species Gracilaria parvispora, ogo produces best where there is very little wind and the waters are calm. Edible red algae is economically important as a food and in the making of gels. Extensive production and natural harvest of red algae occurs in several regions worldwide. Aqua-cultured, ogo is locally grown in Carlsbad, California.

 

[Reefr]

Mostly all sea vegetables are rich in iron, several minerals, calcium and potassium.

Could this explain why with very few corals but lots of chaeto I find my Ca level going down faster than my alkalinity level? Triton should be introducing a balanced input of both so I am scratching my head as I don't understand where the difference is coming from, if not from the macro algae

 

[Subsea]

Could this explain why with very few corals but lots of chaeto I find my Ca level going down faster than my alkalinity level? Triton should be introducing a balanced input of both so I am scratching my head as I don't understand where the difference is coming from, if not from the macro algae

I think the key is that during photosynthesis carbon dioxide is consumed by the macro. Carbon dioxide contributes to carbonate & bicarbonate alkalinity which is consumed during photosynthesis. So macro algae respiration during photosynthesis consumes carbon dioxide & alkalinity but during lights out macro algae consumes oxygen and gives off carbon dioxide.

It seems like a two way process. It depends on when you tested your water in relation to lights on or off.

 

[frankny]

A little iodine isnt bad but it is iron and manganese are more important.

iodine, iron, manganese and potassium are the same important to macroalgae, dose according to the testing is the key to keep them healthy.

 

[Reefr]

I think the key is that during photosynthesis carbon dioxide is consumed by the macro. Carbon dioxide contributes to carbonate & bicarbonate alkalinity which is consumed during photosynthesis. So macro algae respiration during photosynthesis consumes carbon dioxide & alkalinity but during lights out macro algae consumes oxygen and gives off carbon dioxide.

It seems like a two way process. It depends on when you tested your water in relation to lights on or off.

I always test at the same time, when the lights have been on for about 7 or 8 hours already.

I found an interesting post from @Randy Holmes-Farley: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-cheato-use-ca-alk-mg.357226/post-4429364

The main message is:

So could it be that alk is provided by chaeto? and when I see Ca decreasing faster than alk it is in fact alkalinity that is being kept higher than expected, due to chaeto? Maybe in a tank with a lot of SPS, this would be dwarfed by the corals own alk consumption (resulting in larger 2 part dosing and making this small alk level difference invisible)

 

[Subsea]

@Reefr
When you consider the fact that in addittion to a two way street with co2 exchange between Chaeto and water that there is also a two way exchange between carbon dioxide in air and carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, it gets complicated.