Chasing NSW parameters, is it worth it

[Doctorgori]

@Doctorgori I did not see this when I posted. I am glad you quoted it because it caught my eye. I figured others wouldn't have had the same experience.

honestly I’ve suspected my euphillia didn’t like high dkh but had no baseline or supporting samples to back it up…I’m hardly offering that theory now, but it’s strong suspicion fwiw

If I’m not totally mistaken a lot of reefs actually run at 6.5dkh and not 7.5. The 7.5 was the average of all the reefs in the world.

I don’t doubt anyones offering, in fact I’d like to know how those lower dkh tanks run… my skepticism is outta more fear than fact …I wouldn’t do it but have no clear reason for it TBH (BRS recommended 8.1 > makes sense but that’s logic not proof)

 

[Tonycass12]

I am able to keep my levels stable as high as they are currently. I wished however that I could get them down. I am not sure that agree with your statement. I feel you can keep them stable. Getting them where you want them can be challenging.

Like I mentioned everyone's tanks are different. The best advice I've gotten was find what works for you and stick to it!

 

[TheDragonsReef]

….my VERY anecdotal testimony:
I don’t know what dkh exactly p*zzz off LPS but If you could make a blanket statement covering all the assorted genera I can irresponsibly state they seem more sensitive to upswings, esp torches.., just my sample , who knows what other params could be in play

When i attempted high dkh i raised from 7.5 to 11 over the course of 6 months and kept it very stable. Sps seemed to grow faster with thinner branches but all euphyllia shrunk once i started going above 10. Once i started bringing it back down again they puffed right back up. Everything was held very steady and only changed incrementally over a long period of time.

 

[Doctorgori]

Like I mentioned everyone's tanks are different. The best advice I've gotten was find what works for you and stick to it!

but that’s the rub, “everyone’s tanks are different” but the reef parameters (as constants) are quoted as gospel without any supporting evidence (evidence = the associated variables + parameter constants that equate to optimal biology)

I think supporting numbers with the associated tank variables are needed here… especially for tanks running outside of nsw params

for instance: does high alk work better at low nutrients and or high par values? we can all accept tanks are going to be different but we want consistent and or optimal output….

 

[mdb_talon]

but that’s the rub, “everyone’s tanks are different” but the reef parameters (as constants) are quoted as gospel without any supporting evidence (evidence = the associated variables + parameter constants that equate to optimal biology)

I think supporting numbers with the associated tank variables are needed here… especially for tanks running outside of nsw params

for instance: does high alk work better at low nutrients and or high par values? we can all accept tanks are going to be different but we want consistent and or optimal output….

I agree some may state them as "gospel" but for the most part on here i see very reasonable ranges given. Other than one person who replies to most help threads to adjust parameter because their parameters are not in an extremely narrow range he gives i think most advice is pretty open to the fact that tanks can be successful with parameters considerably different than other successful tanks.

There may be an across the board ideal mix of "perfect" parameters for a specific coral, but i think we are a long way from knowing it. Even then it likely varies by coral and most of us have very diverse reefs

 

[Doctorgori]

^^^^

I agree some may state them as "gospel" but for the most part on here i see very reasonable ranges given. Other than one person who replies to most help threads to adjust parameter because their parameters are not in an extremely narrow range he gives i think most advice is pretty open to the fact that tanks can be successful with parameters considerably different than other successful tanks.

There may be an across the board ideal mix of "perfect" parameters for a specific coral, but i think we are a long way from knowing it. Even then it likely varies by coral and most of us have very diverse reefs

… I agree and getting a single “recipe” could be a pipe dream… thing is as I see problem post after problem post, in many cases it’s a misunderstanding of the interplay between different parameters and chasing numbers… It would be nice if we could quantitatively prove low dkh works with a certain nutrient or light level or a high dkh then works with another associative param…et et

I wonder if we (as a whole) don’t take into account a corals ability to adapt and then see this spectacular “stick tank” and try to adjust to their numbers..
( for example WWW corals maintains a dkh of “x” but we have no hard evidence what other params support that number or husbandry proces)

It could be those corals adapted to a dkh of 5.5 (or whatever, pick any parameter)…….I mean does the TOTM person ever talk about how many losses they had along the way?

 

[TheDragonsReef]

^^^^

… I agree and getting a single “recipe” could be a pipe dream… thing is as I see problem post after problem post, in many cases it’s a misunderstanding of the interplay between different parameters and chasing numbers… It would be nice if we could quantitatively prove low dkh works with a certain nutrient or light level or a high dkh then works with another associative param…et et

I wonder if we (as a whole) don’t take into account a corals ability to adapt and then see this spectacular “stick tank” and try to adjust to their numbers..
( for example WWW corals maintains a dkh of “x” but we have no hard evidence what other params support that number or husbandry proces)

It could be those corals adapted to a dkh of 5.5 (or whatever, pick any parameter)…….I mean does the TOTM person ever talk about how many losses they had along the way?

Well i can say for certain the majority of reef tanks are kept around 7-8dkh, 380-440 calcium and 1250-1400 mg. We know these number work because so many have had success in these ranges and its fairly close to the oceans value. Can you have success outside of these parameters, of course, but these values for sure work in almost all tanks for nearly any type of coral. The ones that dont have success in these ranges are due mostly to other factors such as lighting, instability, flow etc.

My advice to anyone outside of the "normal" or nsw parameters who have a healthy reef are to do nothing and continue on as you are. Corals dont handle sudden changes of any sort well but are able to adapt to a fairly wide variety of ranges if given the time to do so. Those with extremely high nutrients, or low alk, or whatever have usually had their setups this way for quite some time. For example, if someone with a thriving reef with say 60ppm nitrates and 1.0 ppm phosphates that was setup and held these parameters for years were to suddenly decide i want to run lower nutrients and did all the work to bring them down, even though now their water is "perfect" their corals would surely perish or suffer. And unless they continued their new maintenance regime, the tank would eventually settled back out at the original 60ppm nitrates and phosphates. At the end of the day stability is more important than any number as long as its within a habitable range. Dont chase growth, color or certain values, but definitely chase stability. The growth and color will come after.

My only gripe with running numbers outside the common range, is that it makes it harder for new additions to adapt. Whether they come from the ocean or the lfs, the closer the parameters are to your tank the easier it is on the coral to adjust

 

[92Miata]

I’m gonna just come out and say it: temp stability is grossly overrated… could be beneficial to keep spot on temps, I dunno,….but I can say IME swinging temps are hardly fatal or for that matter even noticeably stressful. I’m talking a few degree swing a day is all nothing crazy … and BTW I kept my seahorse/lps tank for a few yrs in the low 70s ….maybe longer
…and BTW pt 2 i’ve had both sw and fw tanks dip into the low 60s for nearly a day with zero fatalities…this has happened to me more than once

The last study I saw on temperatures on the crests of barrier reefs in the south pacific ( I believe Fiji) showed fluctuations of up to 10 degrees over the course of a day. Sometimes in a couple hours. Sometimes acropora are actually out of water sitting under the sun.

The majority of our "holy grail" parameters were made up on the spot in the 70s and 80s, and aren't based on any sort of coral biology.

 

[Doctorgori]

The last study I saw on temperatures on the crests of barrier reefs in the south pacific ( I believe Fiji) showed fluctuations of up to 10 degrees over the course of a day. Sometimes in a couple hours. Sometimes acropora are actually out of water sitting under the sun.

The majority of our "holy grail" parameters were made up on the spot in the 70s and 80s, and aren't based on any sort of coral biology.

great point…I’ve seen pictures of reefs at low tide… no doubt a big temp swing…
related to that, what about corals near estuaries or freshwater sources? are there any? and is the salinity and associated params in a state of flux with rainfall et et?

 

[Doctorgori]

Well i can say for certain the majority of reef tanks are kept around 7-8dkh, 380-440 calcium and 1250-1400 mg. We know these number work because so many have had success in these ranges and its fairly close to the oceans value. Can you have success outside of these parameters, of course, but these values for sure work in almost all tanks for nearly any type of coral. The ones that dont have success in these ranges are due mostly to other factors such as lighting, instability, flow etc.

My advice to anyone outside of the "normal" or nsw parameters who have a healthy reef are to do nothing and continue on as you are. Corals dont handle sudden changes of any sort well but are able to adapt to a fairly wide variety of ranges if given the time to do so. Those with extremely high nutrients, or low alk, or whatever have usually had their setups this way for quite some time. For example, if someone with a thriving reef with say 60ppm nitrates and 1.0 ppm phosphates that was setup and held these parameters for years were to suddenly decide i want to run lower nutrients and did all the work to bring them down, even though now their water is "perfect" their corals would surely perish or suffer. And unless they continued their new maintenance regime, the tank would eventually settled back out at the original 60ppm nitrates and phosphates. At the end of the day stability is more important than any number as long as its within a habitable range. Dont chase growth, color or certain values, but definitely chase stability. The growth and color will come after.

My only gripe with running numbers outside the common range, is that it makes it harder for new additions to adapt. Whether they come from the ocean or the lfs, the closer the parameters are to your tank the easier it is on the coral to adjust

I also think chemical stability is the key, not temperature… I also suspect, like you, a lot of tanks outside of normal params likewise have stable params and someone who is consistent and diligent in their husbandry …
so yeah, I’d be more impressed if a tank can consistently grow new additions as opposed to corals already in place for years and years

 

[HuduVudu]

great point…I’ve seen pictures of reefs at low tide… no doubt a big temp swing…
related to that, what about corals near estuaries or freshwater sources? are there any? and is the salinity and associated params in a state of flux with rainfall et et?

My last ocean pull resulted in 1.022 specific gravity 7.7 alk 320 Ca. I am not in reef waters, but the result did surprise me because my earlier water change in the summer was nearer NSW.

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

I use TM Pro Germany. Yes I know the debate and dose Esv 2 Part. I mix my salt to 1.026 and keep my system there. Temp is 76 in Brute and 76-77 in the DT. My alk is 8.5, ph 8.1, ca 440, mag 1400, no3 is 3-5, po4 is .06 atm. But goes to .1 no panic. Haven’t done water changes all that religiously and top off w Kalkwasser to keep the return pump quiet This works for me and I try to maintain the stability. the corals respond well. I get growth and color. Not chasing the dragon. New additions seem to adapt ok. I feed when I remember some amino and ab+. Rest is done by the fish. Just have to adjust 2part dosage as the tank matures. U go nuts if u try to follow the reef tank nsw gospel. Take what u need from it and let it b a guide not an absolute.