Cheap black box vs more expensive LED's question

[TheHarold]

Black boxes

* Very limited functionality

* Only two channels, white and blue; in a color pattern they design

* No flexibility in mixing levels of violets, blues, greens, reds, whites. You are stuck with a blue channel and a white channel

* Many cant even be programmed on intensity (ramping up and down) bc you have to do that MANUALLY with knobs/dials. They are simple ON and OFF lights

* I dont know any Blackbox that can be controlled by Apex

* Many black boxes are built where the power supplies fail within 3yrs. The LEDs are fine but the powersupplies aren't sealed properly and salt-free destroys them. Some times you can find replacement powersupplies on Amazon for $20 but its hit or miss

Brandnames

* Biggest detriment is PRICE. They're 2, 3, 4 times the price of black boxes

* Blackboxes are price point to almost be "throwaways" fixtures. Brandnames are an investment

* Brandname Mfgrs make money from you that if your fixture breakdown outside of the warranty replacement parts are scarce bc THEY WANT TO SELL YOU A NEW FIXTURE at their heavily marked up price

* Brandname Mfgrs make money from you constantly UPGRADING every 3-4yrs. They either come out with "must-have" features.

Hth

That’s a very good, unbiased assessment. Good points. Though it’s worth noting that ramping doesn’t effect corals.

I would also like to see more data regarding black box fixture life, or the power supplies, compared to "expensive" fixtures. I know that particular 'brand name" pumps and lights still suffer from power supply issues.

 

[djray77]

I'm really tempted to sell my T5 hybrid and kessil's and buy a couple more black boxes. I will give the 360's a little longer but if I dont see a turn around I think I will go with what works for me.

 

[RomoFL]

You’ll definitely save money.. which you can use on corals or dosing.

 

[JCOLE]

Fishofhex did a video on how to wire black boxes for use with apex. I dont have an apex so mine are just on timers.

Yes. That is how mine are wired. However. The pinouts are not the same as anything you can find online. Once those are figured out they work flawlessly and have been for 6 months. So far I am glad I only spent $450 on a total of 4 lights. That is half of one "Cadillac" light.

 

[RomoFL]

Yes. That is how mine are wired. However. The pinouts are not the same as anything you can find online. Once those are figured out they work flawlessly and have been for 6 months. So far I am glad I only spent $450 on a total of 4 lights. That is half of one "Cadillac" light.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated! Did you convert 3.3 pwm to 10v analog?

 

[Jon Fishman]

I bought 3 of the 32” 300W Mars Aquas to get my tank up and running and it was cheap enough I could get full coverage until I upgrade to something much better.....


After awhile with the Black Boxes the only major reason for me to upgrade is aesthetics, and I won’t spend $3k for aesthetics

 

[Pntbll687]

You save money with black boxes, AND there are less "things" to play with, therefore you're not messing with them all the time.

I myself use some old marineland reef lights on my 180. They work, and they grow lps very well so I'm happy. They come from China so I'm assuming they are probably similar LED to the black boxes. I also use t5 on my frag tank with a simple outlet timer. I keep it simple and enjoy my tanks instead of worrying about if I have enough or the "correct" light.

 

[eea60123]

I bought used hydra 52’s on R2R. I looked at the black box leds and don’t fault them, but I was rationally or irrationally worried about build quality affecting the safety of the fixtures and them overheating and causing damage to my home. I’m not here to monitor them 24/7 so to me it wasn’t worth the risk( or no risk). I ended up paying a similar price for my used fixtures. I guess my OCD/Over active imagination got the best of me, but I’m happy with my purchase just as nearly every black box owner is. SPS are such a different beast that it may or may not be the lights. Nutrients, PH, among a thousand other things can change their colors. I was at my lfs and saw 2 identical monti’s that were actually from the same piece fragged at the same time but because of running higher UV one was orange and the other red. Good luck

 

[djray77]

This is my only concern, they catch my house on fire. I watched the BRS video on these and they were saying that the components are very cheap (I already knew this) and they can catch on fire which is scary. So is there a higher quality black box with better-made components?

 

[djray77]

I bought used hydra 52’s on R2R. I looked at the black box leds and don’t fault them, but I was rationally or irrationally worried about build quality affecting the safety of the fixtures and them overheating and causing damage to my home. I’m not here to monitor them 24/7 so to me it wasn’t worth the risk( or no risk). I ended up paying a similar price for my used fixtures. I guess my OCD/Over active imagination got the best of me, but I’m happy with my purchase just as nearly every black box owner is. SPS are such a different beast that it may or may not be the lights. Nutrients, PH, among a thousand other things can change their colors. I was at my lfs and saw 2 identical monti’s that were actually from the same piece fragged at the same time but because of running higher UV one was orange and the other red. Good luck

Those 2 pictures I posted are frags from the same piece also. It amazes me the difference you can get with the same coral.

 

[djray77]

I just read another post and it got me thinking about something. My 75g with the t5/hybrid is a bare-bones super simple build, running a canister and no skimmer. I was actually doing this for my own experiment I guess you could say. I wanted to see for myself if all the bells and whistles were really necessary. The tank with the black boxes does have a sump with a skimmer. I don't run anything else in both systems, no carbon or gfo etc.. I wouldn't think this would be causing any effects of color and growth or could it be??

 

[hart24601]

I didn’t see if you listed how much PAR each tank is under. Initially if I had to make a guess that would be it, you are more dialed in on the intensity your livestock is thriving under with the black boxes.

But different system even with similar big 3 parameters can be drastically different systems. Flow is a big one that can be hard to match well between tanks u less the exact same powerheads, exact same placement, same intensity and program

I personally have never thought lighting is the end all be all for reefing, if the intensity is appropriate. I will say that after I switched from my black boxes to AI years ago I did noticed improved color rendition, it was pretty dramatic, but that was 5 years ago.

 

[JCOLE]

Any tips would be greatly appreciated! Did you convert 3.3 pwm to 10v analog?

I did not use their vdm cord. I made my own from RJ45 connectors and cat5e cable. Online it shows pins 3&4 for channels v1/v2 and pins 7&8 for channels v3/v4. Pins 7&8 works fine however I had to use pinout 3%6 for v1/v2.

 

[djray77]

I didn’t see if you listed how much PAR each tank is under. Initially if I had to make a guess that would be it, you are more dialed in on the intensity your livestock is thriving under with the black boxes.

But different system even with similar big 3 parameters can be drastically different systems. Flow is a big one that can be hard to match well between tanks u less the exact same powerheads, exact same placement, same intensity and program

I personally have never thought lighting is the end all be all for reefing, if the intensity is appropriate. I will say that after I switched from my black boxes to AI years ago I did noticed improved color rendition, it was pretty dramatic, but that was 5 years ago.

I havent listed PAR numbers, I havent done a reading on the new setup with the kessils and I have never done one on the black box tank. I just looked at how the corals were doing. I do have a seneye and will take some readings on both tanks later today. I actually want to know the numbers of both as it might give some answers to this.

 

[X-37B]

I went with t5 6 lamps on my 120 and 45 frag tank. I like the look better but thats me. Got both fixtures used. You have to replace tubes yearly but I buy 1 tube a month at around $20.
The lfs I go to has all radions on display and frag tanks. They sunk some serious $'s into them as they have a 500 display and 5 8' frag tanks connected for 2000+ gallons.
Got to admit though I like the look the radions give to the tanks.
Alot of reefers laugh at the black boxes until they see pics.
I think they are a good way to get into the hobby. You can always upgrade later.

 

[djray77]

I went with t5 6 lamps on my 120 and 45 frag tank. I like the look better but thats me. Got both fixtures used. You have to replace tubes yearly but I buy 1 tube a month at around $20.
The lfs I go to has all radions on display and frag tanks. They sunk some serious $'s into them as they have a 500 display and 5 8' frag tanks connected for 2000+ gallons.
Got to admit though I like the look the radions give to the tanks.
Alot of reefers laugh at the black boxes until they see pics.
I think they are a good way to get into the hobby. You can always upgrade later.

That's the thing tho I don't know if upgrading is the right thing to do with the results I'm seeing from both systems. I would like to find a black box thats a better quality and peace of mind that it won't catch fire one day.

 

[justingraham]

So my thoughts are this
Black boxes can grow coral no doubt

Now to your same coral different tank picture in my mind until you connect the systems together in one sump there is no way to tell if it’s the lights or anyone of the thousand other factors you say your params are near identical which they could be but that can make a huge difference if they aren’t identical

For example a colony of the same exact coral looks different the bottom of it isn’t the same color as the top the same coral in two different par looks different

So in my mind if you don’t have the coral in the same water params and same amount of par how can you truly say which one grows it better.

 

[X-37B]

That's the thing tho I don't know if upgrading is the right thing to do with the results I'm seeing from both systems. I would like to find a black box thats a better quality and peace of mind that it won't catch fire one day.

I think the fire issue is overblown. There are too many black boxes runing with no issues. Just my take on it.

 

[djray77]

So my thoughts are this
Black boxes can grow coral no doubt

Now to your same coral different tank picture in my mind until you connect the systems together in one sump there is no way to tell if it’s the lights or anyone of the thousand other factors you say your params are near identical which they could be but that can make a huge difference if they aren’t identical

For example a colony of the same exact coral looks different the bottom of it isn’t the same color as the top the same coral in two different par looks different

So in my mind if you don’t have the coral in the same water params and same amount of par how can you truly say which one grows it better.

So how would a test like this be performed? or can it be? You need two tanks in order to test out different lighting right?
My whole idea of having 2 tanks side by side was to try and test what works for me and what doesn't. I do get what you're saying as far as 2 tanks being different, I'm sure they aren't exactly on the money but I do try and keep them really close in my major elements. Like you said the flow is different, I am running Maxspect Gyre 330's in one and Jebao RW-8's in the other. I was under the impression the coloring of corals was due to lighting? I like to learn from all you experienced reefers. I could get 2more jebao rw-8's that wouldn't be expensive to test out.

 

[X-37B]

I think as long as you have growth dont sweat it.
Test example:
1 4' tank black box on one side radion or whatever on the other.
Adjust settings and height to achieve as close to equal par for each.
Several frags of equal size on each side with similar water flow.
Take pics once a month and record the growth of each.
Then reverse the lights for equal time and observe results.
Problem is keeping your tank stable over time which if not will skew results.
Something to think about anyway.