Cheap or guarentee?

rayn · May 5, 2016

Was at a lfs the other day and me and the store owner got to talking. He asked me if I preferred cheap fish prices, or a higher price with a 7 day guarentee.

To me it came down to the type of fish and how it acted, looked, ate, etc.

Everyone likes a cheap price on their fish, but does that make them "disposable"?

Chris Adams · May 5, 2016

What good is it to buy a cheap fish if it dies. Now you are spending double

to get another 1.
They should stand buy there fish regardless.

Personally I had an LFS that would order what you want and they QT for 3 weeks then release it to me. If one died in QT they would order another 1 or give me store credit.

I would be in no rush to purchase a fish that just came in because it was cheaper.

This is just personal preference and not saying any LFS is better than other but unless you have QT at your house cheap is not worth it.

Duke4Life · May 5, 2016

Not disposable IMO.

michellejy · May 5, 2016

I would rather pay more, which I do since I normally buy through Diver's Den.

A "cheap" clown killed my other clown and is the reason my display tank had to be fallow before a single fish was added (possible cross contamination between QT and new DT).

Cost is relative though, right? If I can get a $200 fish for $150 if I opt not to get a guarantee, that $50 price difference doesn't really feel like a bargain. If it was a $60 fish for $10 though...

rayn · May 5, 2016

Fish aren't disposable, that isn't my meaning at all. It doesn't matter how much or where I buy a fish, it goes through QT and I try to get it fat, happy, and to live a long life. I tend to be picky on my fish as I want them around as long as I can keep them.

I fear the lfs will cater to new reefers who just want a tank. It needs fish right away. Oops, one does...go get another. Tends to lead to a lower clientele that doesn't want to see the hobby survive and grow. It's also a quick way to move fish.

Let's take a example. Yellow tang. 20 bucks out the door, no guarentee. Take that same fish with a 7 day guarentee and the price goes to 60. People more into a quick fish fix will opt for the 20 cause they can buy 3 and screw the guarentee.

NeuroticAquatics · May 5, 2016

I think a reasonable mark up for a properly quarantined fish is better, but I'd have to be 100% certain that it was disease-free and that I could put it into my DT with no worries that something was going to show up. I'm honestly not sure I'd ever find that level of trust though. I'm kind of okay paying less and seeing what happens in my QT at this point. I never view any fish I but as disposable though. They simply aren't.

michellejy · May 6, 2016

I think those of us who are really passionate about the hobby (enough to be active on forums and stick with it after devastating losses) are likely the minority of owners.

I don't think rayn is saying he (nor any of us) view a fish as disposable, whether it is a $5 damsel or a $500 angelfish. For the LFS that is trying to stay competitive with chains like Petco though, are those of us who buy fish, quarantine, and keep them for years a better business decision than the person who watches Nemo and wants to stick a clownfish in a goldfish bowl?

I think a lot of us see our fish like pets rather than decor. Hell, when Betty (my 7 1/2 year old clownfish) died a couple of months ago, I wrote a long post about losing her on Facebook. A friend I have known for over 20 years didn't know I was talking about "just a fish" and called my dad to check on me!

In an ideal world, our LFS would always choose ethics over profits, but realistically they have to balance out new customers comparing their $20 guaranteed damsel to the same type that costs $5 at Fish R Us. I imagine that for the less expensive fish, a lot of stores just don't want to deal with the expense and hassle of new owners screwing up and nuking a tank full of fish.

eatbreakfast · May 6, 2016

I would be willing to bet the LFS owner was asking because walk-in-retail for LFS is the worst I have ever seen it, and he was trying to see what his customers would value more.

I live in an area where within a 90min drive there are quite a few good stores, whenever I go to any of them, there are rarely any customers and they are all trying to do whatever they can to spur business.

Without actual retail numbers to look at, it seems that most people appreciate cheaper prices, as the store in the lowest rent area, but the cheapest livestock is the busiest. The 'nicer', bigger, or cleaner stores aren't as busy, even if they offer a guarantee.

Knowledge of staff is also difficult for most customers to guage, as in the cheaper stores sound knowledgeable to most of their customers, but I see misidentified livestock, and a lack of understanding of basic reef chemistry, but most of there customers will never know it's incorrect. That advice seems just as good to most customers, as the advice from a different store that actual correct info is given.

rayn · May 6, 2016

@michellejy @eatbreakfast

I think you both nailed important parts of it. Petco or other shops sell stuff cheap and move it. They have a customer that just wants a tank. A lfs that actually takes care of their fish and has proven healthy fish is different.

How does a lfs cater to both? Can it even cater to both?

michellejy · May 6, 2016

rayn said:
@michellejy @eatbreakfast

I think you both nailed important parts of it. Petco or other shops sell stuff cheap and move it. They have a customer that just wants a tank. A lfs that actually takes care of their fish and has proven healthy fish is different.

How does a lfs cater to both? Can it even cater to both?

Outside of treating fish like appliances and doing the "for $15 more, you can get a warranty on this fish," I don't know that you can cater to both. I think the only way the LFS can really compete is to specialize in more exotic options that the chain stores won't carry.

eatbreakfast · May 6, 2016

^I agree, I don't think you can cater to both. I actually think LFS are a dying breed. Sure, there will always be some around in some form, but not like how it used to be, where you would do the rounds of a few stores on a Saturday afternoon.

I think the initial fear of buying livestock has subsided, so buying 'regular' livestock will be done through either local big box stores or the big online retailers, and that the rare and exotic will be ordered from some other online dealer. LFS just can't compete with the low overhead some of the online suppliers have. Couple that with LFS buying less, then the wholesalers are more willing to sell to garage dealers, they are trying to make money too, or even some of the 'specialty' online guys developing relationships so that one guy gets all the ultra chalices and another gets first shot at the ultra zoas, it leaves the LFS to get 2nd rate livestock, so why will someone get in their car and drive 45min away when they can get something nicer and comperable in price, or even cheaper through their phone at their kids little league game?

rayn · May 6, 2016

Why? Because they like to see it first. I like to see my fish swim, act, eat. I like to see my corals flow in the current, open, not crawling with bugs.

I'm still a "like to see it first" guy. Not saying I don't buy online, but I like lfs.

eatbreakfast · May 6, 2016

rayn said:
Why? Because they like to see it first. I like to see my fish swim, act, eat. I like to see my corals flow in the current, open, not crawling with bugs.

I'm still a "like to see it first" guy. Not saying I don't buy online, but I like lfs.

Personally, I feel the same way. I place a premium on seeing a fish in person, how it swims, how aggressively it eats, it's size, and colors. However, I feel that we are a dying breed. More and more people are getting used to the idea of buying something 'sight unseen'. 15 yrs ago how many people would choose to buy clothes without first seeing it and trying it on? Department stores will tell you how much customers viewpoints on that have changed over that time.

So even though there are still a few of us left that value seeing livestock in person, the further into the 'amazon' generation the mre people will think that the likeness of what they purchased and what they got is good enough. Combine that with the 'ease of refunds' that LA and Petco have that are becoming the online industry standard and it is difficult for LFS to compete.

michellejy · May 6, 2016

Don't underestimate the impulse buyers. I have a friend who works at a vet in NYC which is down the street from a pet store that sells purebred puppies. EVERY DAY she has a story of someone coming in and not knowing the breed of the dog they just bought (common things like Pugs, which are easily recognizable) or not knowing that the Mastiff puppy will get huge.

I think if a fish store isn't in a main shopping center though, then yes, they are a dying breed, unfortunately.

1fishjones · May 6, 2016

It's a shame but people will spend an hour at their LFS getting all their questions answered & then have the nerve to tell them they're going home to order the stuff on-line because it's cheaper.
I only order things on-line after exhausting all other options. When it comes to livestock I would give the hobby up if I had to have it shipped.

rayn · May 6, 2016

People that brain pick the lfs just to home and order, are killing the lfs. They are the ones putting them out of business for others that want/need them.

eatbreakfast · May 6, 2016

1fishjones said:
It's a shame but people will spend an hour at their LFS getting all their questions answered & then have the nerve to tell them they're going home to order the stuff on-line because it's cheaper.
I only order things on-line after exhausting all other options. When it comes to livestock I would give the hobby up if I had to have it shipped.

rayn said:
People that brain pick the lfs just to home and order, are killing the lfs. They are the ones putting them out of business for others that want/need them.

IMO it's equivalent to stealing. Employing knowledgeable employees costs more than minimum wage and it has to be reflected somewhere, and in most cases those prices aren't that significantly different than online.

tankstudy · May 6, 2016

Make it optional. For example, if I agree to pay $8.75 per green chromis, give me a 7 day guarantee. If I choose to pay $5.00 a green chromis, it dies at my own loss. Something similar to when I buy rods @ Bass Pro, the coverage on my rod is an additional charge but it is optional.

Looking at what I buy most at my LFS, its probably equipment, medias and test kits.

NeuroticAquatics · May 6, 2016

I don't buy online because I like to see my fish first, but also because of the cost. Once shipping is factored in, it is almost always more expensive than any of my LFS's.

rayn · May 6, 2016

I like the optional idea. Issue I see there is why would they guarentee one fish but not the other, when they came in be same bag from their supplier?

It also depends on fish price I still think. If the lfs is used to selling 5-50 dollar fish it's different then a lfs selling a 100-? Dollar fish. I suppose that also comes back on the buyer as well. I would want some guarentee on a 200 fish anywhere I buy it.