Chemical Warfare

[BradB]

In 15 years in the hobby, I've read and heard a lot about chemical warfare between sessile organisms. But everything has been anecdotal - I've never read anything Scientific, just stories like "Never keep 2 anemone species in the same tank", "My Acropora grew an inch a day after I removed that toadstool" or "that's why I change my carbon every week".

What can I even search for in the scientific literature? "Chemical warfare" is a horrible search term if you hope to find anything relevant.

Is this something we can test for?

Are the effects of chemical warfare observable beyond some species doing vaguely worse in our tanks?

 

[JimWelsh]

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=coral+allelopathy&btnG=&oq=coral+all

 

[Lazys Coral House]

I have not seen any evidence in my tanks that corals affect others through the water column. It does however occur when a coral touches another coral and the chemicals they produced will kill by injecting it directly through it's nematocysts. Basically fighting for space. From that aspect; I dont think that any significant warfare occurs that would warrant any consideration for what you have in your Reef but there should be some consideration with proximity

It may occur to some insignificant extent . However there's not any evidence that suggests one coral will affect the general health, color or growth of another coral through the water column. Sure a coral could die and that can affect another coral by fouling the water but I don't think you were asking about that. We do however see evidence every day with full-blown reefs with every coral imaginable coexisting peacefully side-by-side, mine included

There are a lot of things in this hobby that folks hear and then repeat which eventually becomes truth but are not likely. Your topic falls in that category. For example if you use copper in a glass, platic or acrylic tank to treat fish that tank can't be used for a (Reef) in the future. Truth: Dumping that water out and putting new water in and you're good to go.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Are the effects of chemical warfare observable beyond some species doing vaguely worse in our tanks?

Just picking the first sentence of the first article in Jim's search link shows the kind of info one can expect:

"A striking retardation of grwoth was observed in the scleractinian coralPavona cactus(Coelenterata: Scleractinia) growing in the vicinity of the soft coralSinularia flexibilis(Coelenterata: Alcyonacea)"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have not seen any evidence that corals affect others through the water column.


There are a lot of things in this hobby that folks hear and then repeat which eventually becomes truth but are not likely. Your topic falls in that category. .

Check the first sentence in the first linked article to see otherwise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is this something we can test for?

Are the effects of chemical warfare observable beyond some species doing vaguely worse in our tanks?

As to testing, hobbyists do not have the ability to test for the specific organic compounds involved, but you might be able to observe the effects and/or modulate them with organic binders such as GAC.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

I seen that however I also see evidence every day of full-blown reefs on this forum that are looking fantastic, get exceptional growth with very diverse corals. Myself included. I have seen folks tear apart there reef pulling out all their soft corals only to find six months later that nothing has changed.
Here is a link to my reef growth from one year all while having connected tanks just as full with soft and LPS corals. If it is occurring then it's insignificant play into a beautiful and successful reef with exceptional growth. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/364-days.186927/

 

[S-t-r-e-t-c-h]

As to testing, hobbyists do not have the ability to test for the specific organic compounds involved, but you might be able to observe the effects and/or modulate them with organic binders such as GAC.

That paper cites "terpenoid compounds" as the chemicals involved. I believe they can be removed by protein skimming, as well...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I seen that however I also see evidence every day of full-blown reefs on this forum that are looking fantastic, get exceptional growth with very diverse corals. Myself included. I have seen folks tear apart there reef pulling out all their soft corals only to find six months later that nothing has changed.
Here is a link to my reef growth from one year all while having connected tanks just as full with soft and LPS corals. If it is occurring then it's insignificant play into a beautiful and successful reef with exceptional growth. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/364-days.186927/

It may be of no concern to most reefers, and may or may not be happening in ordinary reef tanks.

Many people use methods that will remove many organic compounds from the water. These include GAC, skimming, ozone, GFO, aluminum oxide, etc. perhaps those limit the effects of released organics that might otherwise be an issue if allowed to accumulate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That paper cites "terpenoid compounds" as the chemicals involved. I believe they can be removed by protein skimming, as well...

As I mention above, many of the methods we use reduce organics.

I discuss some of the potentially toxic organics here:

Organic Compounds in the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Negative Effects of DOM: Toxins

Marine organisms can produce a multitude of organic toxins. It is beyond the scope of this article to go into the many toxins that might concern aquarists, but some discussion is certainly merited. These toxins may be intentionally released by organisms to kill neighbors or competitors, or they may be kept internally to ward off predators (being released only during predatory encounters which may or may not end in death). Some are fairly simple biochemicals. Domoic acid, for example (Figure 2), is a fairly simple biochemical that is produced by many species of diatoms. Ciguatoxin, on the other hand (Figure 3), is a complicated molecule made by a dinoflagellate. As it works its way up through the food chain to people, it has been implicated in many fatalities and is reported to sicken 20,000 people per year.20

Caulerpin (Figure 4) and caulerpicin are sometimes referred to as toxins, although they appear to be primarily growth regulators present in various species of macroalgae, especially Caulerpa. They are not particularly toxic to animals or bacteria in most studies.4-10 Many aquarists decline to keep Caulerpa sp. in their aquaria, sometimes citing the possibility of elevated levels of such toxins as a reason. Whether these particular "toxins" are of primary concern or not, looking at the structures of these sorts of toxins can help suggest ways to remove them (carbon, for example, since they are very hydrophobic), but I have never seen measurements of the levels of any toxins in aquaria, or comparisons of how well different export mechanisms might reduce those levels. I would consider such measurements to be of significant value to aquarists.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

It may be of no concern to most reefers, and may or may not be happening in ordinary reef tanks.

Many people use methods that will remove many organic compounds from the water. These include GAC, skimming, ozone, GFO, aluminum oxide, etc. perhaps those limit the effects of released organics that might otherwise be an issue if allowed to accumulate.

Yes I agree perhaps in normal circumstances or most circumstances it's not seen. but if left without doing water changes perhaps at that point things could build up and impact growth. With our current tool set it's not very easily proven or disproven. What we do know is that we can keep a variety of corals and achieve exceptional growth and coloration. Perhaps once the Trident is released thanks to Jim we will start to see trends with the consumption of carbonates based on the addition or removal of particular corals which would give a definitive answer that would allow us to put a percent of impact.

 

[BradB]

I am specifically concerned because I have a 'Japanese' toadstool (bright green with tan polyps). It was the size of a dime, and I remember when those went for $300. It didn't grow much for 5 years, but now it suddenly got big and I have a lot of dime sized ones around it. I also keep a little bit of blue ridge, mushrooms and a gorgonian, and who knows how many sponges in the rock, sump and equipment. I would like to do more soft corals, but don't want to give up on Acropora.

I always ran carbon, but pulled it about a month ago after I saw HLLE on my yellow tangs. Acropora doesn't look great, but it always go through ups and downs.

'allelopathy' was the word I needed to search intelligently. Thanks.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

I have lots of toadstool as well. Here is a picture of a few. Sharing space with my sticks and a bunch of other coral

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am specifically concerned because I have a 'Japanese' toadstool (bright green with tan polyps). It was the size of a dime, and I remember when those went for $300. It didn't grow much for 5 years, but now it suddenly got big and I have a lot of dime sized ones around it. I also keep a little bit of blue ridge, mushrooms and a gorgonian, and who knows how many sponges in the rock, sump and equipment. I would like to do more soft corals, but don't want to give up on Acropora.

I always ran carbon, but pulled it about a month ago after I saw HLLE on my yellow tangs. Acropora doesn't look great, but it always go through ups and downs.

'allelopathy' was the word I needed to search intelligently. Thanks.

To reduce organics with less chance of HLLE, try an acid washed GAC like ROX 0.8, or a non GAC material such as Purigen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Chemical warfare is also not always bad from a hobbyist perspective. Some macroalgae can deter the growth of dinos (which came up today in a dino thread):


4. release of compounds from the macroalgae that deters dino growth

After all, macroalgae doesn't want dinos growing on it, and may have developed defenses, and such interactions are well known in the scientific literature:

Allelopathic interactions between the HAB dinoflagellate Ostreopsis cf. ovata and macroalgae
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568988315001328

"The results indicated that all the investigated seaweeds exerted negative effects toward the benthic dinoflagellate O. cf. ovata."

 

[BradB]

To reduce organics with less chance of HLLE, try an acid washed GAC like ROX 0.8, or a non GAC material such as Purigen.

I don't like 'magic powders' that don't say what's in them. Purigen says its "a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer". I assume this is more than just a mechanical filter, but have no idea what. I may pick some up if you say it is safe.

Can I make my own ROX by mixing GAC and Hydrochloric acid? I have a lot of GAC to use up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't like 'magic powders' that don't say what's in them. Purigen says its "a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer". I assume this is more than just a mechanical filter, but have no idea what. I may pick some up if you say it is safe.
.

It's not magic. It is a well established way of binding organic matter. I have invented pharmaceuticals based on this technology that are very successful. It is not a mechanical filter. It binds organics in a similar way to GAC.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Can I make my own ROX by mixing GAC and Hydrochloric acid? I have a lot of GAC to use up.

You can acid wash GAC (I have), but that doesn't make it ROX.

 

[Lazys Coral House]

I always ran carbon, but pulled it about a month ago after I saw HLLE on my yellow tangs.

Anothet hobby myth. Yea
I know it is published on reef builders. More often than not it is caused by a poor diet lacking of algae and general nutrition.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Anothet hobby myth. Yea
I know it is published on reef builders. More often than not it is caused by a poor diet lacking of algae and general nutrition.

Maybe. While I removed Marineland Black Diamond GAC and ozone use at the same time out of concern for issue with my tangs, I no longer had the problem after that change.