Chemistry - Dosing Question

[CodyRVA]

So, i'm using a Bubble Magus doser. My first question is, does anyone know how to measure the accuracy of these? I was dosing around 100ml of CA a day and my levels started to drop. I currently have my CA channel set to 150ml a day and my levels haven't budged, they test out the same. I test weekly. I've heard of precipitation, not sure how this happens or how it would be happening in my system. I'm having the same issue with MG. I went from dosing 10ml to 50ml and my testing has shown only the slightest bump up for MG. ALK seems fine, i've had to increase it, but when I do, my tests show it.

I am running GAC, GFO, a very small amount of pellets and I was dealing with a bryopsis issue and am still dosing Vibrant. I also dose Red Sea Coloration. My coral look great, but that can change quickly. I am not one to chase numbers on dosing, but I don't want to keep raising my doses, get a new doser and over does the heck out of my system (assuming my doser is dying). I do have some massive SPS colonies that could be draining my system, but I would imagine if I increased my dosing of 50ml a day my tests would show it... Thoughts?

Parameters:
Tank Age: 3 years
Size: 80G
Alk: 9.0
CA: 360
MG: 1380

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Is there a calibration?

The jeabo has one. Found instructions on you tube and in the box.

X turns = X Mil.
Soo 100 mil= 89 turns (or so).

 

[CodyRVA]

Is there a calibration?

The jeabo has one. Found instructions on you tube and in the box.

X turns = X Mil.
Soo 100 mil= 89 turns (or so).

I emailed them, i can't find anything on calibration. If I knew how to simply test agains the dosage I would do so.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yea a brief google shows no calibration instructions.

There does appear to be some variance but no that much.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1841840

All I would think to do would be gost dose into a marked in mil container.

For the jeabo I have a 0-100ml glass from target.

 

[CodyRVA]

Yea a brief google shows no calibration instructions.

There does appear to be some variance but no that much.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1841840

All I would think to do would be gost dose into a marked in mil container.

For the jeabo I have a 0-100ml glass from target.

I can do that, I just don't know how many ml it's supposed to dispense per second/minute as a reference. Is there another way to test it? I could technically place the tubing into a beaker for 24 hours and see how much it's dispensing and manual dose the tank...?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I can do that, I just don't know how many ml it's supposed to dispense per second/minute as a reference. Is there another way to test it? I could technically place the tubing into a beaker for 24 hours and see how much it's dispensing and manual dose the tank...?

Yea you could do that with the cal for sure. You won’t mess with alk ph etc. cal don’t care.

As long as you know the daily dose.

My doser is set to dispense in ml four times a day. I guess yours is not.

 

[CodyRVA]

Yea you could do that with the cal for sure. You won’t mess with alk ph etc. cal don’t care.

As long as you know the daily dose.

My doser is set to dispense in ml four times a day. I guess yours is not.

Good call, i'm making it more complicated than it needs to be. Right now it's set to 150ml total, 8 times per day, so 18.75 ml per dose is what I should get back...

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Good call, i'm making it more complicated than it needs to be. Right now it's set to 150ml total, 8 times per day, so 18.75 ml per dose is what I should get back...

Sweet!

 

[jsker]

Question, are you dosing all there at one time or space the dosing out?

By spacing the doses out meaning 10 minutes between the Ca, Mg, and the alk. Alk sound be dosed separately or by itself or with percipate the others.

 

[CodyRVA]

Question, are you dosing all there at one time or space the dosing out?

By spacing the doses out meaning 10 minutes between the Ca, Mg, and the alk. Alk sound be dosed separately or by itself or with percipate the others.

So here's the verdict...

ALK: starts at 1:00 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 100ML total per day, I missed the actual dose amount, but should have been 12.5ML

CA: starts at 1:05 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 150ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 11.5ML, but should have been 18.75ML

MG: starts at 1:10 AM, once per day, currently at 50ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 39ML, but should have been 50ML

My guess is this doser is started to crap out on me. I'll try and record the actual dosage for ALK when possible. Assuming the doser is going bad, this was my first doser, would new heads solve the issue or would I need a new doser? If i need a new doser, any recommendations? I do not run Apex products.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

Peristaltic pumps often are not as accurate as we might think.
Very good that you did this check !!

From my experience, the reason is often not that the motor unit/ software is inaccurate.
It is more that the tubings of the pumping units are the reasons for inaccuracies.

The working principle of these pumps can be described as „sucking liquids“ by the use of „ tubes squeezed together“.
As soon as their are some particles inside the tubes, the doser is not efficient as it should be.
Also there should be some „tension“ in the 180• circle of the tubing.

Recommendation
- clean all tubes
- reinstall with some tension on it (if your pump allows that)

Measure again each channel:
A) Amount that should be dosed (target value) / amount dosed in reality (actual value)
-> = correction factor for this pump

B) Apply this factor to each of your pumps channels within the settings of your dosed volume

——-

Example
A) to be dosed 100ml / dosed in reality 82ml
Factor: 100 /82 = 1,22

B) desired dosing amount: 150ml of stock solution
Set your doser to 150ml x 1,22 = 183 ml

 

[jsker]

So here's the verdict...

ALK: starts at 1:00 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 100ML total per day, I missed the actual dose amount, but should have been 12.5ML

CA: starts at 1:05 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 150ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 11.5ML, but should have been 18.75ML

MG: starts at 1:10 AM, once per day, currently at 50ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 39ML, but should have been 50ML

My guess is this doser is started to crap out on me. I'll try and record the actual dosage for ALK when possible. Assuming the doser is going bad, this was my first doser, would new heads solve the issue or would I need a new doser? If i need a new doser, any recommendations? I do not run Apex products.

@Martin Kuhn has some good points.

To add, purchasing a graduated cylinder would answer all you questions on what amounts the doser is dosing, also to calibrate a doser.

I would also suggest spacing the doses 10 minutes apart, just to give the dose time to mix before the next. I dose right by the return pump.

As far as dosers, I have used Jebao dosers for the past two years with very little issue. If you have an older doser and replacing the doser will not brake the bank, like and old car it is better to replace sometimes then repair.

Recently I purchased a new doser to replace the Jebao's. With the new doser I wanted interface via PC, Mac, web, and app for making adjustments instead of pushing buttons on the top. I also was looking for a doser that the parts were easier to replace and simple to install. Lastly I was looking for a doser that I can dose a drop if need be. The GHL 2.1 was recommenced and I am very happy with the recommendation with all my requirements plus wifi. So far with the video on the GHL web site the doser was easier to setup and calibrate. I will say I during setup, reload the initial setup several times, beside that on other issues.

I also have a DOS which works great with my Apex for my auto water change. The DOS is more expensive for the two head then the GHL for 4 heads. Neptune need to work on the noise of the doser, it load. The GHL is silent compared to the DOS. The GHL, you do not need a controller to run the doser and there are some other neat add on's. I will say the GHL is pricey and we all know in this hobby, some of the good toys can be pricey I you are not looking for all the foo foo things a Jebao's D-4 would work well.

 

[CodyRVA]

Thanks for the advice @Martin Kuhn & @jsker. I can confirm that the CA tubing was definitely twisted right at the doser head which may be affecting the dosing amount. That being said, MG was off as well and there's no issue with that tubing.

I do dose right into my return pump chamber.

I found replacement heads on BRS HERE. I might give this a try, the reviews are promising. One review is specifically about 2 of the 3 heads performing poorly and replacing the heads fixed the issue. I can take a chance and order 3 of these for $75 vs spending several hundred on a new unit. Still a gamble, but might be worth trying.

 

[jsker]

Thanks for the advice @Martin Kuhn & @jsker. I can confirm that the CA tubing was definitely twisted right at the doser head which may be affecting the dosing amount. That being said, MG was off as well and there's no issue with that tubing.

I do dose right into my return pump chamber.

I found replacement heads on BRS HERE. I might give this a try, the reviews are promising. One review is specifically about 2 of the 3 heads performing poorly and replacing the heads fixed the issue. I can take a chance and order 3 of these for $75 vs spending several hundred on a new unit. Still a gamble, but might be worth trying.

Good choice. I would still suggest grabbing the graduated cylinder

I wonder if you could use the new calibration instruction for the old pump??

 

[CodyRVA]

Good choice. I would still suggest grabbing the graduated cylinder

I wonder if you could use the new calibration instruction for the old pump??

Using the cylinder for a more accurate measurement? I let the doser dose into a container and then sucked it up with a medical grade syringe, but the syringe isn't marked as precisely as a cylinder is of course.

I never found calibration instructions. That's why I ended up just doing a simple guess and check on what I have the pump set to and what was actually being dosed.

 

[jsker]

Using the cylinder for a more accurate measurement?

Much more accurate. For a small expense of knowing, is much better then guessing

I never found calibration instructions.

Here some information on Bubble megus dosing pumps setups link It might not be your pump, but the setup should be close or the same as yours. It worth a try.

 

[Martin Kuhn]

What I described before is a calibration.

The thing is, that peristaltic pumps do not always dose very exact. It is not a matter of electronics and the exact RPMs the pumps deliver...... this parts are nice and exact.

The thing is the error which is caused by not 100% proper adjustment of the tubing And also The risk of remaining particles in the tubing.

A certain maintenance (cleaning and adjusting of the tubing) together with measuring the dosed amount and applying the correction factor will solve the problem.

 

[Stigigemla]

The important thing is not how much You dose. The important thing is to maintain good levels in the tank. Ca looks a bit low to me.
I would raise tha Ca dose to get around 420.

I use an electronic kitchen scale for calibration and for mixing the solutions. How much You dose of the different solutions is dependent of the concentration.
How do You make Your solutions?

 

[CodyRVA]

The important thing is not how much You dose. The important thing is to maintain good levels in the tank.

Agreed and I am not one to chase numbers. While the pump may be failing, it is at least consistent, thus my parameters are stabile and my coral have not suffered. The real reason this concerns me is if I keep bumping my dosages up to compensate for the dying pump without realizing the pump is dying, I will have no idea what to set my dosages to when the pump finally dies. And when that time comes, and it surely will come, I may very well over dose the hell out of my system and nuke it. Weekly testing exposed this issue, otherwise I would have been completely ignorant to this issue.

Ca looks a bit low to me. I would raise tha Ca dose to get around 420.

Agreed, unfortunately with this pump head going, the only other option is to supplement with manual dosing, which I have started to do for the time being.

I use an electronic kitchen scale for calibration and for mixing the solutions. How much You dose of the different solutions is dependent of the concentration.
How do You make Your solutions?

So, there's no way to calibrate this unit. I did test the actual dosage amounts (posted above) compared against what I have the programs set to. My concentrations are the same as always, I measure everything out in cups and gallons as instructed, I use BRS 2 part. After testing all three pumps, I believe i've nailed down the dying pumps as the culprits. I've since ordered 3 new replacements and will monitor them closely after they're installed.

 

[CodyRVA]

Update:

So, I replaced all three heads on my doser and I believe that fixed the issue. I did a test dose last night and the numbers came in right on. I cut back my dosing numbers to what they were before I started having dosing issues; I track all of this in a google doc so it was easy to recall my old numbers.

Before:
ALK: starts at 1:00 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 100ML total per day, I missed the actual dose amount, but should have been 12.5ML
CA: starts at 1:05 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 150ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 11.5ML, but should have been 18.75ML
MG: starts at 1:10 AM, once per day, currently at 50ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 39ML, but should have been 50ML

Now:
ALK: starts at 1:00 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 100ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 12.5ML, and should have been 12.5ML - Good
CA: starts at 1:05 AM, 8 times a day, currently at 100ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 12.5ML, and should have been 12.5ML - Good
MG: starts at 1:10 AM, once per day, currently at 10ML total per day, actual dosed amount was 10ML, and should have been 10ML - Good

So, CA, channel 2, was definitely under dosing as was MG, channel 3. ALK, channel 1, seemed to be fine, but I replaced that head too. I'll continue to test daily so my numbers are back on target.