Chemistry Question for Beaker Bob

robby2782

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Messages
728
Reaction score
246
Location
Dallas, Tx
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

I have a couple questions for you Beaker Bob!

#1: What are your thoughts on dosing iodine and the best measures for testing? I don't want the routine answer saying that constant water changes negate the need to dose since I don't do water changes.

#2: What is your opinion on dosing ozone and do you feel it is counter productive if using biopellets and dosing bacteria?

I presently use a calcium reactor and dose lime to maintain a constant calcium/alkalinity balance and dose magnesium at a minimum. It's great to know Reef2Reef has their own Chemist!
 
I don't have a chemistry degree, but I have a couple of opinions of my own on your questions.

I never dosed Iodine, as there was not a good test for it when I had my last tank up, AND I too used a CaRX and Kalk reactor to maintain my Ca and Alk. If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Here is another positive about your current set up, the media that most of us use in our reactors is dead coral skeleton, so IF Iodine is required, then it will be available in the effluent of your CaRX.

On point 2, I have no opinion, as I never dosed O3, purposely. O3 is generated on a small scale by the UV I did run 24/7 on my reef though. ;)
 
Not beakerbob, definately not a chemist - but FWIW I dose .45mg of potassium iodine (in addition to what I feed) - 4x a day. 1.8mg(day) into a heavily loaded 160 gallon system mixed reef with 15 or so fish.. This is one area where I tend to rely on husbandry rather than chemistry - I judge by how fast things are growing, if my shrimp are molting periodically and if the coraline is thriving. I don't go much higher, but if things are looking tired (generally) - I water change - (I also dissolve coral in a manner similar to a calcium reactor as part of denitrification but lately calcium demand has exceed this source.) I have a test kit (red-sea) but I never use it.

I don't know much about ozone - but I am very interested in hearing about it. I did read up on various research with respect to h202 generation in natural seawater over reefs. UV striking organic material in the surface waters generates H2O2 which goes through a decay during the night creating a diurnal signal in the presence of warm food rich waters. Clear ocean waters - free of organics produce no such signal. Is it important. Who knows - perhaps its through such signals that corals, clams etc synchronize their spawning.

Oxygen radicals appear naturally in the reef - corals use oxygen radicals in their immunological defense and have molecules to protect themselves from oxygen radical damage.

What your asking though is weather or not it would have an effect on the utility of bio-pellets. I'm not a fan of the carbon dosing methods. But if I understand bio-pellets produce bacteria on their surface and release these into the water column where they are intended to be skimmed out. As long as bio-pellets are running upstream from the ozone and the ozone is quenched (passed over carbon) before entering the water column generally, I think they should work fine together. In fact, my personal opinion is I wouldn't want to run them any other way. I'm not a fan of massive amounts of unidentified bacteria growing in my system.
 
Robby, let's start with Iodine Dosing first.

IODINE:

Iodine is a mineral nutrient that is naturally present in seawater. These mineral nutrients (such as calcium, selenium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, zinc, and iodine) are chemical elements required by living organisms. Algaes, soft corals, sea sponges, shrimps, shells and fishes can accumulate measurable iodine concentrations, higher than the normal 60 ppb average concentration in the seawater.

Iodine may come from the rocks in your tank, the salt water you mixed up, the fish food you feed your tank, the dried nori seaweed that tangs love to eat, or supplements.

In the ocean, iodine can be found in many different organic and inorganic forms that may change back and forth depending on many factors, pH being one of them. There are two major inorganic forms of iodine species: IODATE ( IO3-) and IODIDE (I-). Organic forms of iodine are formed when they attach to carbon atoms, such as methyl iodide (CH3I).

When iodine is added to water, the following reaction occurs and can move back and forth depending on environmental factors such as pH:
I2(l) + H2O(l) -> IO-(aq) + 2H+(aq) + I-(aq)


But what does all this mean in terms of dosing iodine?? If you dose iodine, it is rapidly being converted to other forms of iodine (called species). These other forms are selectively taken up by algae, corals & fish. It is being absorbed by activated charcoal in a media reactor or sock and probably lost to skimming. Additionally, it is constantly changing its form….as an example, phytoplankton may use iodate, covert it to iodide and release it into the tank.

Because the dosed iodine is readily converted to other forms in the tank water, it is very difficult to measure a TOTAL IODINE concentration. The commercially available hobbyist kits are specific to certain iodine species and can be complex to use. Some kits only detect iodide, iodate and molecular iodine, while others may only detect iodide and molecular iodine.

A better question may be “Do I need to dose iodine?†or “Does dosing Iodine help or hurt the tank?†Since iodine (and its varying forms) seem to be eliminated fairly quickly by skimming, charcoal and algae uptake, supplementation appears to be harmless if kept within reason. As stated above, supplementation can come in the form of feeding the tank fish food, nori, or iodine based chemicals. Overdosing can be harmful, but there is no information available on lethal dose concentrations for varying species of corals, crustaceans and fish.

Anecdotally, I dosed a combination of iodine and iodide for many years in my tank without testing at a rate of 2 mL/100 gallons/week, with a 25 gallon water change every 2 months, active skimming and use of charcoal. I had good coral growth, good crustacean molting, and great macro algae growth. I decided to maintain my tank without iodine supplementation to see if there was any effect. The only detrimental affect I observed was the slower growth of macro algae, but I cannot identify iodine as the cause because I had changed my fuge lighting as well as other modifications. So, I have no opinion on iodine dosing, other than to tell you that the use of available kits for testing may not give you the total concentration. Try it, if it seems to perk up your tank corals and algae, then use it.

I’ll discuss ozonation in my next reply soon. I have to finish remodeling the bathroom first as it is all torn up at this time.
 
Thanks for your input. I've read similar information but I want to see the impact it could have on acropora. I've noticed better polyp extension since dosing a 5ml to my system once the last 2 weeks. I just don't trust any test kit.
 
Hmmm so maybe dosing lugols is a waste of money for some feeding nori and other foods with iodine. Very interesting Bob. Thanks for the insight. :)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
 
The lack of easy, reliable testing is what killed dosing iodine for me. Back in the day I thought I'd be a tropper and add this to my dosing repertoir, found what seemed to be the best test kit (Seachem....which I still believe is the best going....still don't recommend it.) and proceeded to attempt to maintain 0.06 ppm.

A) The test kit is a pain in the *** to use - you have to make one of the reagents immediately prior to use.
B) The results are useless without their included standard solution to make up a 0.06 ppm test to see for comparison. (Of which they were generous in sending me additional quantities.)
C) The results were still very unreliable, probably due to the BeakerBob-mentioned speciation of iodine in the water.

I'm with the "in moderation" crowd if you really feel the need to dose it. Stay within the bottle's dosing directions, or less, and you should at least cause no problems. It's just debatable whether you will be doing any good and next-to-impossible to verify where you stand.

If you're really obsessed on this, it could be worth sending a water sample to Aquarium Water Testing to see what a professional iodine test might say.

Good luck!

-Matt
 
I don't think you can easily over dose iodine, since its very sensitive to light, it would get depleted very fast. I just dose 5 mlg once in a blue moon, no testing. I agree that testing for iodine is almost impossible.
 
I've never dosed iodine and never had an issue from not dosing it, always got good growth in all my corals

the OP stated he doesn't do water changes, so that is a good question to ask
 
Last edited:
Anecdotally, I dosed a combination of iodine and iodide for many years in my tank without testing at a rate of 2 mL/100 gallons/week, with a 25 gallon water change every 2 months, active skimming and use of charcoal. I had good coral growth, good crustacean molting, and great macro algae growth. I decided to maintain my tank without iodine supplementation to see if there was any effect. The only detrimental affect I observed was the slower growth of macro algae, but I cannot identify iodine as the cause because I had changed my fuge lighting as well as other modifications.

Hey Bob, with that said it sounds like you have discontinued dosing..??

(I also dissolve coral in a manner similar to a calcium reactor as part of denitrification but lately calcium demand has exceed this source.)

I am curious to learn your method of denitrification Robert...!!!
 
At this point in time I cannot fully explain the mechanisms by which my denitrification works. I know that seems a little odd.

I started my system using water changes as my only means of nitrate control. As this proved insufficient I moved on to carbon dosing (vodka) an bio-pellets. I had issues with these - probably as a result of inexperience and perhaps because of my tank configuration - While nitrate did drop over time, I did not like the turbidity and the general condition of my corals. I next moved on to sulphur following the designs of DIY and commercial units. The first unit I built was a bit of a flop. It worked but was a bit of a pain to get dialed in and keep working consistently. My second unit, I didn't follow the conventions- I added some additional media types and it worked much better - almost too good. I also noticed that I wasn't using much GFO or chemi-pure elite but I didn't think much of it.

In testing this units ability to clear nitrate, (which is awesome), and as an experiment to control cyano. I've started dosing relatively large (by reef standards) quantities of nitrate fertilizer to my tank (calcium and magnesium nitrate) - It was during these tests that, specifically at the end of these tests that I noticed my phosphate levels were next to non-existent. this with no GFO running and nothing at all to control phosphate. As I still fed very heavily and nothing changed I suspected the additional nitrate.

So for past couple of months, I've carefully experimented with nitrate/ammonia dosing. Trying to keep my system's phosphate levels below detectable levels and observing my livestock.

The results have been very good. It appears to work and and after much reading I think I have a grasp on how it works - Its a three step process, requiring three "zones" of biological activity. I can't say I figured this out in advance, I stumbled on it by chance. Two of the three active zones are anerobic the second of which results in excess hydrogen ion production which is quenched by system alk and aragonite sand releasing calcium and magnesium. Ultimately, I think phosphate is precipitated out of solution as Struvite (MAP) Magnesium ammonia phospahte in a (1:1:1) ratio and although I have no proof of this, I do have the research of others that strongly suggest that this is the final disposition of the phosphate.

I'm building Version 4 now - and have plans for a fifth design to shrink the size (which is already quite small) and so that I can better understand the relationship / requirements and products of each stage.

I'm pretty excited about it. I've personally never had corals grow so quickly and some which I have struggled with (goniopora) are doing nicely, encrusting to base rock two weeks after their introduction to the tank.

But hell, who knows really, I've done other things to my system lately including automating my dosing which undoubtably helps my corals.

I don't know anyone else who uses this system - my tank may crash tomorrow - and I may be nuts.
 
Last edited:
I have discontinued routine weekly dosing and now supplement iodine/iodide about once a month if I remember. This is mainly to ensure that the crustacean population has enough to promote a good molt.
 
At this point in time I cannot fully explain the mechanisms by which my denitrification works. I know that seems a little odd.

I started my system using water changes as my only means of nitrate control. As this proved insufficient I moved on to carbon dosing (vodka) an bio-pellets. I had issues with these - probably as a result of inexperience and perhaps because of my tank configuration - While nitrate did drop over time, I did not like the turbidity and the general condition of my corals. I next moved on to sulphur following the designs of DIY and commercial units. The first unit I built was a bit of a flop. It worked but was a bit of a pain to get dialed in and keep working consistently. My second unit, I didn't follow the conventions- I added some additional media types and it worked much better - almost too good. I also noticed that I wasn't using much GFO or chemi-pure elite but I didn't think much of it.

In testing this units ability to clear nitrate, (which is awesome), and as an experiment to control cyano. I've started dosing relatively large (by reef standards) quantities of nitrate fertilizer to my tank (calcium and magnesium nitrate) - It was during these tests that, specifically at the end of these tests that I noticed my phosphate levels were next to non-existent. this with no GFO running and nothing at all to control phosphate. As I still fed very heavily and nothing changed I suspected the additional nitrate.

So for past couple of months, I've carefully experimented with nitrate/ammonia dosing. Trying to keep my system's phosphate levels below detectable levels and observing my livestock.

The results have been very good. It appears to work and and after much reading I think I have a grasp on how it works - Its a three step process, requiring three "zones" of biological activity. I can't say I figured this out in advance, I stumbled on it by chance. Two of the three active zones are anerobic the second of which results in excess hydrogen ion production which is quenched by system alk and aragonite sand releasing calcium and magnesium. Ultimately, I think phosphate is precipitated out of solution as Struvite (MAP) Magnesium ammonia phospahte in a (1:1:1) ratio and although I have no proof of this, I do have the research of others that strongly suggest that this is the final disposition of the phosphate.

I'm building Version 4 now - and have plans for a fifth design to shrink the size (which is already quite small) and so that I can better understand the relationship / requirements and products of each stage.

I'm pretty excited about it. I've personally never had corals grow so quickly and some which I have struggled with (goniopora) are doing nicely, encrusting to base rock two weeks after their introduction to the tank.

But hell, who knows really, I've done other things to my system lately including automating my dosing which undoubtably helps my corals.

I don't know anyone else who uses this system - my tank may crash tomorrow - and I may be nuts.


You may be nuts, but you should also post pics and a version of this write-up to the DIY forum - that would be really crazy! :wink:

Seriously, very intriguing - I'm sure you'd get some co-inventors to share experiences with if you did a "build thread" on it (but don't let that dissuade you!). ;-)

I'd love to see some pics at least.

-Matt
 
You may be nuts, but you should also post pics and a version of this write-up to the DIY forum - that would be really crazy! :wink:

Seriously, very intriguing - I'm sure you'd get some co-inventors to share experiences with if you did a "build thread" on it (but don't let that dissuade you!). ;-)

I'd love to see some pics at least.

-Matt
+1 that sounds insane. I am waiting for some picks.
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
Back
Top