Chicago anemone comparability

cpschult

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I’m picking up a Chicago sunburst anemone today!
Last week i sold the last of my rainbow btas.

4 years ago I had to have a friend hold my Chicago sunburst and it ended up melting in his system (I’m assuming to chemical warfare from his rainbows. Is there anything other than some water changes and running carbon that I can do to make sure it doesn’t have a problem coming into my tank?

thanks!
 
I’m picking up a Chicago sunburst anemone today!
Last week i sold the last of my rainbow btas.

4 years ago I had to have a friend hold my Chicago sunburst and it ended up melting in his system (I’m assuming to chemical warfare from his rainbows. Is there anything other than some water changes and running carbon that I can do to make sure it doesn’t have a problem coming into my tank?

thanks!

If his rainbow is bta??? / nems do not produce chemical warfare.

Some species of bta nems just don’t did well under leds like they do under MH or T5 lighting.

I could never get a true Sherman bta to thrive under leds, like they did with t5 or mh lighting.
 
If his rainbow is bta??? / nems do not produce chemical warfare.

Some species of bta nems just don’t did well under leds like they do under MH or T5 lighting.

I could never get a true Sherman bta to thrive under leds, like they did with t5 or mh lighting.


All bubble tip anemones are the same species. It is likely there is some other factor at play other than lighting. The only thing that could possibly cause an issue would be a drastic change in spectrum or par. Even then, bubble tips are pretty resilient, especially considering their mobility.
 
All bubble tip anemones are the same species. It is likely there is some other factor at play other than lighting. The only thing that could possibly cause an issue would be a drastic change in spectrum or par. Even then, bubble tips are pretty resilient, especially considering their mobility.

From experience with true Sherman bta’s they just don’t thrive under leds while a rainbow does, in the same reef.

I‘ve tried it two times since 2012, with the same results.
They will dive low and they survive, but not thrive.

It could be something else but they do not produce chemical warfare as the OP stated.
 
If his rainbow is bta??? / nems do not produce chemical warfare.

Some species of bta nems just don’t did well under leds like they do under MH or T5 lighting.

I could never get a true Sherman bta to thrive under leds, like they did with t5 or mh lighting.

So there is no mis-understanding, a few very expensive bta’s such as the Colorado sunburst (CSB) or Chicago sunburst do not survive when housed with other bta’s. This is well documented. So.. now you know.
 
All bubble tip anemones are the same species. It is likely there is some other factor at play other than lighting. The only thing that could possibly cause an issue would be a drastic change in spectrum or par. Even then, bubble tips are pretty resilient, especially considering their mobility.
I’m sorry but you are misinformed.
There is well documented issues mixing certain “strains” as it were of bubble tips.

Most documented between expensive bta’s such as CSB, supernova’s, Chicago sunburst; but has also been noted in freshly wild caught bta’s.

so… now you know.
 
I’m sorry but you are misinformed.
There is well documented issues mixing certain “strains” as it were of bubble tips.

Most documented between expensive bta’s such as CSB, supernova’s, Chicago sunburst; but has also been noted in freshly wild caught bta’s.

so… now you know.
This. There is definitely occasions where anemone do not work well together. Let's pull in some heavy hitters on the subject to weigh in with their own experiences.

@Lost in the Sauce @F i s h y @OrionN @Eagle_Steve @Nemguy123
 
I’m sorry but you are misinformed.
There is well documented issues mixing certain “strains” as it were of bubble tips.

Most documented between expensive bta’s such as CSB, supernova’s, Chicago sunburst; but has also been noted in freshly wild caught bta’s.

so… now you know.

Look up the species. It's all the same species. Hobby names are not the same thing as different species. You can have variation of color within them. I am on my phone but if you want to do some homework it will take about 2 seconds to find the list of species within its genus.
 
This. There is definitely occasions where anemone do not work well together. Let's pull in some heavy hitters on the subject to weigh in with their own experiences.

@Lost in the Sauce @F i s h y @OrionN @Eagle_Steve @Nemguy123

No. They are the same species with color variation. They also get along fine. It's convenient to say that different colors don't mix, but unless someone can pull up literature on the topic, it's just like the classic "my hermit crabs killed my fish!"
 
No. They are the same species with color variation. They also get along fine. It's convenient to say that different colors don't mix, but unless someone can pull up literature on the topic, it's just like the classic "my hermit crabs killed my fish!"
Will have to wait for the people to weigh in that I've tagged. I know for a fact some of them have had issues with color variations. No need to read a book when you can ask the authors.
 
Just copy and pasting from my notes when I saved it to my phone. See if this is any help

Sea Anemone Toxins
Jiri Patocka a and Anna Strunecka b
a Department of Toxicology, Military Medical Academy, 500 01 Hradec Kralove;
b Department of Animal Physiology and Developmental Biology, Faculty of Sciences, Charles University, 128 00 Prague, Czech Republic.
Introduction
Toxins are non-replicating chemical agents of biological origin. The toxicity of many toxins is very high, often comparable with chemical warfare agents. Some toxins are among the most toxic substances known [1] and may be misused for military or terrorist purposes [2]. Roughly speaking, toxins can be divided according to their pharmacological effects: neurotoxins, myotoxins, hepatotoxins, nephrotoxins, hematological toxins and locally acting toxins. Toxins also can be divided according to their sources, such as snakes, scorpions, mussels, spiders, marine creatures, sea anemones, etc. This article describes the structure and function of a common, easily available toxin.
Sea anemone toxins
Sea anemones (Actiniaria) are solitary, ocean dwelling member of the phylum Cnidaria and the class Anthozoa. These carnivorous animals are common along all of the sea shores of the world. Most sea anemones adhere by their bases to hard substrates, such as rocks, corals, other animals or ship bottoms. They have tentacles that surround a central mouth opening and these are used to catch and transfer food (mollusks, crustaceans, small fish) to their mouth. "Burning cells", on the edges of tentacles, loose specific toxins [3].
Toxins of sea anemones are peptides that contain 46-49 amino acid residues in a single polypeptide chain that is cross-linked by three disulfide bridges [4]. Shorter and longer polypeptide chains were also found in the venom of some species [5, 6]. At this time, more than forty toxic peptides have been isolated from different sea anemone species and their amino acid sequences and positions of disulfide bridges estimated. The chemical structure of a typical polypeptide toxin, anthopleurin A, isolated from the sea anemone Anthopleura xanthogrammica, is given in Fig. 1 [7].
Sea anemone toxins can also be characterized as neurotoxins [4]. The isolated toxins enhance the normal release of neurotransmitters because they can selectively block some neuronal sodium and potassium ion channels. The ion channels of excitable cells can be described as water-filled pores with a membrane controlled by electrosensitive gates. Normally, when the membrane potential is negative enough, most of the channels are closed. During depolarization they open within fractions of millisecond (activation) and then become non-conducting again (inactivation). These ion channels help control the excitability of nerve cells and aid in the regulation of neurotransmitter release. Ligand-gated ion channels are neurotransmitter receptors for both excitatory (acetylcholine, serotonin, glutamate) and inhibitory (GABA and glycine) transmitters. These receptors contain an intrinsic ion channel, which is opened by the binding of the neurotransmitter. Several subunits, encoded by individual genes, have been cloned for most of these. The distribution of receptor subunits varies in different brain regions and different neuronal cell types. The different subunit compositions of the receptors has provided the impetus to search for the structural determinants of various toxins’ action by comparing the sensitivities of different receptor subtypes with the toxins.
Sodium and potassium channels are the primary targets for a number of neurotoxins, each of which causes specific alterations in channel functions. Blocking of ion channels by sea anemone toxins leads to paralysis of neuronal transmission in skeletal muscles [8]. This produces among other things, heart arrhythmia and respiratory failure ending in cardiac failure. No specific therapy is known.
The toxicity of sea anemone toxins is high, not only for prey animals, but also for others, including many vertebrates. The lethal dose for a mouse, expressed by a LD50 value, ranges from 1 to 100 µg/kg [9]. This is comparable with the most toxic organophosphate chemical warfare agents [10]. It is clear that these toxins have potential as warfare agents. Sea anemone toxins are more available than many other animal toxins, for example snake, scorpion or spider toxins. Their molecules are relative simple and may be prepared by solid phase peptide synthesis or more sophisticated biotechnologies. However, these toxins can also be used as guides leading to new, more effective therapies. Because the target of their action, neuronal sodium and potassium channels, is known very well [10, 11], it is possible to use structure-based drug design [12] and find those compounds that have good geometrical and chemical complementarity for the target structure.
Conclusions
Sea anemone toxins represent a group of polypeptides, containing 46-49 amino acid residues in a single polypeptide chain that is cross-linked by three disulfide bridges. The toxicity of sea anemone toxins is comparable with the most toxic organophosphate chemical warfare agents.

References
1. Franke, S. Lehrbuch der Militaerchemie. 2nd Ed., Militaerverlag er DDR, 1977.
2. Geissler, E. Biological and Toxin Weapons Today. SIPRI, Oxford University Press, Oxford 1986.
3. Patton. W.K. Sea Anemones. Academic American Encyclopedia, 1995 ed. Manoleras, N, 4. Norton R.S. Three-dimensional structure in solutions of neurotoxin III from the sea anemone Anemonia sulcata. Biochemistry 1994; 33: 11051-11061.
5. Schweitz, H., Bidard, J.N., Frelin, C., Pauron, D., Vijverberg, H.P., Mhasneh, D.M., Lazdunski , M., Vilbois, F., Tsugita, A. "Purification, sequence, and pharmacological properties of sea anemone toxins from Radianthus paumotensis. A new class of sea anemone toxins acting on the sodium channel." Biochemistry 1985; 24: 3554-3561.
6. Schweitz, H., Vincent, J.P., Barhanin, J., Frelin, C., Linden, G., Hugues, M., Lazdunski, M. "Purification and pharmacological properties of eight sea anemone toxins from Anemonia sulcata, Anthopleura xanthogrammica, Stoichactis giganteus, and Actinodendron plumosum." Biochemistry 1981; 20: 5245-5252.
7. Norton, T.R. "Cardiotonic polypeptides from Anthopleura xanthogrammica (Brandt) and elegantissima (Brandt)." Fed.Proc. 1981; 40: 21-25.
8. Rogers, J.C., Qu, Y., Tanada, T.N., Scheuer, T, Catterrall, W.A. Molecular determinants of high affinity binding of alpha-scorpion toxin and sea anemone toxin in the S3-S4 extracellular loop in domain IV of the Na+ channel alpha subunit. J. Biol. Chem. 1996; 271:15950-15962.
9. Norton, R.S. "Structure and structure-function relationships of sea anemone proteins that interact with the sodium channel." Toxicon 1991; 29: 1051-1084.
10. Munro N.B., Ambrose K.R., Watson A.P. "Toxicity of the organophosphate chemical warfare agents GA, GB, and VX: Implications for public protection. Environ. Health Perspect. 1994; 102: 18-38.
11. Catterall W.A. Molecular properties of voltage-sensitive sodium channels. Annu. Rev. Biochem. 1986; 55: 953-985.
12. Kuntz I.D., Roe D.C. What is structure based drug design? Pharmaceutical News 1995; 2: 13-15.


What I take from this is yes, they contain and secrete or excrete over.

From my own aquarium, I can say that I 100% believe there is a cumulative effect of these polypeptides and different anenome, react to them differently.

Running massive amounts of carbon, helps with that.

You can call that chemical warfare, or being a bad neighbor.
 
Last edited:
No. They are the same species with color variation. They also get along fine. It's convenient to say that different colors don't mix, but unless someone can pull up literature on the topic, it's just like the classic "my hermit crabs killed my fish!"
I'm curious if you've done this? Have you mixed high-end and either aquacultured or wild imported ( run of the mill )quadricolors with them? Have you gotten green bubble tips with quadricolors to survive more than 2 years together?

I have my own experiences ,I'd love to hear about yours.
 
No. They are the same species with color variation. They also get along fine. It's convenient to say that different colors don't mix, but unless someone can pull up literature on the topic, it's just like the classic "my hermit crabs killed my fish!"
Jesus how do you have 7,500 posts and have no idea about this.

Colorado sunbursts (CSB’s) are the most well know anemone to have issues with it. Take 30 seconds and use the search button before you shove your foot any further in your mouth, please.
 
Just copy and pasting from my notes when I saved it to my phone. See if this is any help

Sea Anemone Toxins
Jiri Patocka a and Anna Strunecka b
a Department of Toxicology, Military Medical Academy, 500 01 Hradec Kralove;
b Department of Animal Physiology and Developmental Biology, Faculty of Sciences, Charles University, 128 00 Prague, Czech Republic.
Introduction
Toxins are non-replicating chemical agents of biological origin. The toxicity of many toxins is very high, often comparable with chemical warfare agents. Some toxins are among the most toxic substances known [1] and may be misused for military or terrorist purposes [2]. Roughly speaking, toxins can be divided according to their pharmacological effects: neurotoxins, myotoxins, hepatotoxins, nephrotoxins, hematological toxins and locally acting toxins. Toxins also can be divided according to their sources, such as snakes, scorpions, mussels, spiders, marine creatures, sea anemones, etc. This article describes the structure and function of a common, easily available toxin.
Sea anemone toxins
Sea anemones (Actiniaria) are solitary, ocean dwelling member of the phylum Cnidaria and the class Anthozoa. These carnivorous animals are common along all of the sea shores of the world. Most sea anemones adhere by their bases to hard substrates, such as rocks, corals, other animals or ship bottoms. They have tentacles that surround a central mouth opening and these are used to catch and transfer food (mollusks, crustaceans, small fish) to their mouth. "Burning cells", on the edges of tentacles, loose specific toxins [3].
Toxins of sea anemones are peptides that contain 46-49 amino acid residues in a single polypeptide chain that is cross-linked by three disulfide bridges [4]. Shorter and longer polypeptide chains were also found in the venom of some species [5, 6]. At this time, more than forty toxic peptides have been isolated from different sea anemone species and their amino acid sequences and positions of disulfide bridges estimated. The chemical structure of a typical polypeptide toxin, anthopleurin A, isolated from the sea anemone Anthopleura xanthogrammica, is given in Fig. 1 [7].
Sea anemone toxins can also be characterized as neurotoxins [4]. The isolated toxins enhance the normal release of neurotransmitters because they can selectively block some neuronal sodium and potassium ion channels. The ion channels of excitable cells can be described as water-filled pores with a membrane controlled by electrosensitive gates. Normally, when the membrane potential is negative enough, most of the channels are closed. During depolarization they open within fractions of millisecond (activation) and then become non-conducting again (inactivation). These ion channels help control the excitability of nerve cells and aid in the regulation of neurotransmitter release. Ligand-gated ion channels are neurotransmitter receptors for both excitatory (acetylcholine, serotonin, glutamate) and inhibitory (GABA and glycine) transmitters. These receptors contain an intrinsic ion channel, which is opened by the binding of the neurotransmitter. Several subunits, encoded by individual genes, have been cloned for most of these. The distribution of receptor subunits varies in different brain regions and different neuronal cell types. The different subunit compositions of the receptors has provided the impetus to search for the structural determinants of various toxins’ action by comparing the sensitivities of different receptor subtypes with the toxins.
Sodium and potassium channels are the primary targets for a number of neurotoxins, each of which causes specific alterations in channel functions. Blocking of ion channels by sea anemone toxins leads to paralysis of neuronal transmission in skeletal muscles [8]. This produces among other things, heart arrhythmia and respiratory failure ending in cardiac failure. No specific therapy is known.
The toxicity of sea anemone toxins is high, not only for prey animals, but also for others, including many vertebrates. The lethal dose for a mouse, expressed by a LD50 value, ranges from 1 to 100 µg/kg [9]. This is comparable with the most toxic organophosphate chemical warfare agents [10]. It is clear that these toxins have potential as warfare agents. Sea anemone toxins are more available than many other animal toxins, for example snake, scorpion or spider toxins. Their molecules are relative simple and may be prepared by solid phase peptide synthesis or more sophisticated biotechnologies. However, these toxins can also be used as guides leading to new, more effective therapies. Because the target of their action, neuronal sodium and potassium channels, is known very well [10, 11], it is possible to use structure-based drug design [12] and find those compounds that have good geometrical and chemical complementarity for the target structure.
Conclusions
Sea anemone toxins represent a group of polypeptides, containing 46-49 amino acid residues in a single polypeptide chain that is cross-linked by three disulfide bridges. The toxicity of sea anemone toxins is comparable with the most toxic organophosphate chemical warfare agents.

References
1. Franke, S. Lehrbuch der Militaerchemie. 2nd Ed., Militaerverlag er DDR, 1977.
2. Geissler, E. Biological and Toxin Weapons Today. SIPRI, Oxford University Press, Oxford 1986.
3. Patton. W.K. Sea Anemones. Academic American Encyclopedia, 1995 ed. Manoleras, N, 4. Norton R.S. Three-dimensional structure in solutions of neurotoxin III from the sea anemone Anemonia sulcata. Biochemistry 1994; 33: 11051-11061.
5. Schweitz, H., Bidard, J.N., Frelin, C., Pauron, D., Vijverberg, H.P., Mhasneh, D.M., Lazdunski , M., Vilbois, F., Tsugita, A. "Purification, sequence, and pharmacological properties of sea anemone toxins from Radianthus paumotensis. A new class of sea anemone toxins acting on the sodium channel." Biochemistry 1985; 24: 3554-3561.
6. Schweitz, H., Vincent, J.P., Barhanin, J., Frelin, C., Linden, G., Hugues, M., Lazdunski, M. "Purification and pharmacological properties of eight sea anemone toxins from Anemonia sulcata, Anthopleura xanthogrammica, Stoichactis giganteus, and Actinodendron plumosum." Biochemistry 1981; 20: 5245-5252.
7. Norton, T.R. "Cardiotonic polypeptides from Anthopleura xanthogrammica (Brandt) and elegantissima (Brandt)." Fed.Proc. 1981; 40: 21-25.
8. Rogers, J.C., Qu, Y., Tanada, T.N., Scheuer, T, Catterrall, W.A. Molecular determinants of high affinity binding of alpha-scorpion toxin and sea anemone toxin in the S3-S4 extracellular loop in domain IV of the Na+ channel alpha subunit. J. Biol. Chem. 1996; 271:15950-15962.
9. Norton, R.S. "Structure and structure-function relationships of sea anemone proteins that interact with the sodium channel." Toxicon 1991; 29: 1051-1084.
10. Munro N.B., Ambrose K.R., Watson A.P. "Toxicity of the organophosphate chemical warfare agents GA, GB, and VX: Implications for public protection. Environ. Health Perspect. 1994; 102: 18-38.
11. Catterall W.A. Molecular properties of voltage-sensitive sodium channels. Annu. Rev. Biochem. 1986; 55: 953-985.
12. Kuntz I.D., Roe D.C. What is structure based drug design? Pharmaceutical News 1995; 2: 13-15.


What I take from this is yes, they contain and secrete or excrete over.

From my own aquarium, I can say that I 100% believe there is a cumulative effect of these polypeptides and different anenome, react to them differently.

Running massive amounts of carbon, helps with that.

You can call that chemical warfare, or being a bad neighbor.
Thanks! I did a few water changes and ran a bunch of carbon. So far the Chicago sunburst I picked up looks fine.
 
Jesus how do you have 7,500 posts and have no idea about this.

Colorado sunbursts (CSB’s) are the most well know anemone to have issues with it. Take 30 seconds and use the search button before you shove your foot any further in your mouth, please.
There's no reason for that. There are thousands of reefers on here, with very different experiences and knowledge to share. Listen to people.. That's how we learn things. Worst that happens is it reinforces the reasons you know you are correct, No?
 
There's no reason for that. There are thousands of reefers on here, with very different experiences and knowledge to share. Listen to people.. That's how we learn things. Worst that happens is it reinforces the reasons you know you are correct, No?
I'm not actually sure where I come down on the side between whether the known/ well documented instances of CSBs not doing well in tanks with other standard quadricolors, has more to do with chemical warfare or bacterial incompatibility. There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides. Unfortunately there's no money in the studies to figure it out. I doubt BRS is going to care about doing a video on that.

I'm a strong advocate for carbon and lots of it.
 
BTA's are compatible and rarely tangle with each other
 
There's no reason for that. There are thousands of reefers on here, with very different experiences and knowledge to share. Listen to people.. That's how we learn things. Worst that happens is it reinforces the reasons you know you are correct, No?
Sure there is. It takes 30 seconds to use the search function on here. He’s not talking about personal experience. If he was I’d have a different response.

I asked the original question looking for an answer from a subject expert. Not someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about. There is clearly something different about some bta’s. Maybe it’s a mutation, maybe it’s something else. I’m not looking for an argument but his position doesn’t really lend itself to answering my question, especially when I know he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
 
Sure there is. It takes 30 seconds to use the search function on here. He’s not talking about personal experience. If he was I’d have a different response.

I asked the original question looking for an answer from a subject expert. Not someone who doesn’t know what they are talking about. There is clearly something different about some bta’s. Maybe it’s a mutation, maybe it’s something else. I’m not looking for an argument but his position doesn’t really lend itself to answering my question, especially when I know he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Are we not on a Forum, to be entertained, learn and discuss? Being a jerk helps none of those. You aren't going to help Educate someone, like that. Golden Rule homie.
 

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