Chloroquine phosphate with prime

[Brett newell]

Good evening all,
Unfortunately I have come down with something in my reef tank. I believe it is either ich or velvet. I'm leaning towards ich and then a bacterial infection that killed my tang. I have removed all fish from tank. I plan on keeping it fallow for about 90 days for good measure. My fish are in a 20 long at the moment and I am dosing with paragaurd while I wait for my cp. I know seachem says it's ok to use pg and prime, but is it ok to use cp and prime to control ammonia so I can do wc every couple days instead of every day to feel better about ammonia. Also are the seachem ammonia badges worth getting, to have as a reference?

 

[Humblefish]

You can use Prime with CP, but I would still do regular water changes to help control ammonia. Think of Prime more like a temporary band-aid, not a permanent solution, to the problem.

I personally feel the Seachem ammonia alert badge is a useful tool in QT, but do not take its reading as absolute if you are seeing other indicators of ammonia.

 

[Brett newell]

I ordered an alert badge just to have as a reference. I was talking to a guy at a lfs about fallow and he is saying that ich will hibernate as long as possible and that fallow doesn't really work. He said the best chance would be to add some qt water to the dt to get some fish faramones in there to get the ich to come out to the free swimming stage. I don't see how that can be true with how long ppl have been using fallow treatment and how many ppl advocate it's the only real way to solve this issue in a reef tank.

 

[Humblefish]

I was talking to a guy at a lfs about fallow and he is saying that ich will hibernate as long as possible and that fallow doesn't really work. He said the best chance would be to add some qt water to the dt to get some fish faramones in there to get the ich to come out to the free swimming stage.

Ich can go dormant, but only in cold water. In one study, trophonts and tomonts survived dormant for 4–5 months at 12°C (53.6°F), and, after the water temperature increased to 27°C (80.6°F), developed and infected fish (Dan et al. 2009).

If that LFS guy has any references linking fish pheromones with Cryptocaryon, I'd love to read about it.

 

[Brett newell]

No, he has no proof. The I see does make sense tho. That scent should attrack the parasite. But I'm not sure it has that brain capacity. Just like have the capacity to stay dormant if there's no fish in the water.

 

[Brett newell]

So there is no reason to believe that after 90 days with no fish, at 78 to 80 degrees. There will be any ich or velvet in the tank?

 

[Humblefish]

So there is no reason to believe that after 90 days with no fish, at 78 to 80 degrees. There will be any ich or velvet in the tank?

From my way of thinking, all we can do is make decisions based upon what is currently known to science. Ich has been well-studied, and in one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts. A theront must find a fish host within 48 hours or it starves to death. So, if you go fallow for 76 days (I add 2 extra days just in case a protomont hasn't fully developed into a tomont yet) that covers all strains of ich which have been studied.

Now, is it possible there is a yet to be discovered strain of ich which takes longer than 72 days for all the free swimmers to be released from their cysts? Of course. But it's important to note that even the 72 day variant was cultured under unusual conditions - 68F and with the aid of antibiotics in a sterile flask. As Dr. Colorni (one of the co-authors of the study) said to me:

Undoubtedly, low temperature slows down Cryptocaryon’s metabolism and thus lengthens its life cycle. Indeed 72 days were an exceptional period, but it occurred with the aid of antibiotics in a sterile flask. In nature (and in an aquarium), over more than two months, I would expect bacteria to “gnaw” on the tomont and eventually damage it.

So, while it is technically possible for ich to survive 76 days (or maybe even longer) in a fallow DT, I feel the odds are very much on your side of that not happening.

 

[Humblefish]

FWIW; velvet (and brook) has a much shorter life cycle than ich. 6 weeks max without a fish.

 

[Brett newell]

I'm sure I would be ok putting them back sooner, I just want be on the side of caution. It's not fun catching fish. I'll start my cp treatment Saturday. I'm waiting until then so I'll be home to keep an eye on the fish for negative side effects. I'm afraid my mandarin will starve in there tho. I'm adding pods twice a day for him buts it's hard to tell if he's eating them. Also should I feed the dt? There a couple peppermint shrimp, skunk cleaner, tuxedo urchin, gold hammer, toadstool, and a small mushroom. Also there's some bristle worms in there. I know they're good but they're just so ugly. With less food in there will it dwindle their numbers?

 

[Brett newell]

I'm not sure if it's ich or velvet in there. I was thinking ich, because of how fast it would be on then off the fish, then an infection that killed my tang.

 

[Humblefish]

I'm afraid my mandarin will starve in there tho. I'm adding pods twice a day for him buts it's hard to tell if he's eating them. Also should I feed the dt? There a couple peppermint shrimp, skunk cleaner, tuxedo urchin, gold hammer, toadstool, and a small mushroom. Also there's some bristle worms in there. I know they're good but they're just so ugly. With less food in there will it dwindle their numbers?

Many mandys will eat live blackworms and also this: http://www.nutramar.com/ova.html

However, I wouldn't blame you for trading him in for store credit because mandarins are a PITA to QT for 4-6 weeks let alone 76 days.

As for your DT, I would just toss some pellets in every few days to maintain bacteria levels. Maybe target feed your inverts once a week or so. Bristle worms are detrivores, so a reduction in nutrients + fish poop should cull their numbers back.

 

[Brett newell]

My Mandy sadly passed on last night. He seemed pretty skinny but also had some small white patches? Maybe I am dealing with velvet over ich after all. Wish I had a microscope. Anyway, cp dosing started today, with nls ich shield powder. I did the recommended dose this morning after a 3 gallon water change and I plan on slightly upping the dose because they say it has a very large safety margin. Qt is under one of my breeding tanks in a dark room, so very little light. No spots today, clown had spots last night but nobody else (can't really tell if starry blenny has spots).